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Coronavirus

CambridgeWolf said:
The experience in France did set some alarm bells ringing. It’s effectively impossible to function normally in that society unvaccinated and I’m not comfortable with a two-tier society or vaccination by stealth. We are already seeing the unvaccinated being described as selfish (and much worse) and the inference they are somehow dirty and depriving ‘us’ of treatment by taking ‘our’ hospital beds is very dangerous and not helpful at all.

It does feel we are relatively sheltered which is creating an ambivalence, and yes, potentially allowing us to sleepwalk into something we should be concerned about. Even French-style enforcement would be too much for some currently unconcerned, never mind the various steps along the pathway to an eventual vaccine mandate. Everyone has their tipping point and mine is nowhere near being reached, but the France experience showed some worrying signs of where we might be heading and I’m not sure we should be so quick to dismiss others concerns because vaccines and vaccine passports appear to be the panacea and give us the security we so desperately crave.

Someone mentioned earlier about a visit to the NEC. In France there’s no way you’d be able to flash a screenshot and walk through the door. You’d be scanned in, recorded on a database and traceable. The same if you wanted to nip to a cafe or restaurant for a bite to eat, or do a bit of shopping, or maybe nip for a pint on your way back, or effectively any public indoor place, or anything that resembles normal life. That‘s fine in a one-dimensional ‘control for the benefit of public health‘ sense, but I suspect this stretches beyond that - to what level is of course hugely debatable - but I do understand the exasperation of those with serious concerns.

I guess we’ve all got to decide where our barometers are set and strategies that meet our own needs are always going to be more palatable to us than others, but there are some quite worrying times ahead irrespective of where we sit on the spectrum.
Click to expand...

That is where I am at and I am grateful for your interjection.
 
Papper said:
I want vaccines for the vulnerable given the effect (ie reduction in fatalities). Yes I want tyrannical restrictions removed.
Click to expand...

So you want or at least, by your own admission accept, otherwise healthy people to die because you prefer to restrict vaccinations to the more obviously vulnerable only?

Surely by having everyone who can be vaccinated, vaccinated is the way to reduce and eliminate restrictions and lockdowns? To be against vaccinations AND against restrictions is to not only accept mass death by covid but also many other illnesses as hospitals and health systems become overwhelmed.
 
Papper said:
I want vaccines for the vulnerable given the effect (ie reduction in fatalities). Yes I want tyrannical restrictions removed.
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If they are unvaccinated and end up in hospital, stopping people get Cancer and other treatments, they are clearly "vulnerable"!
And because of their refusal to vaccinate (because they're alright jack) other people are dying.
Who decides who is vulnerable and who decides who doesn't need the vaccine?
 
MARKakaJIM said:
There's no level of surveillance provided by vaccine passports/contact tracing that isn't already volunteered en masse by widespread use of mobile phones, the internet and general every day technology. Why are people worried about it now when they've willingly given up that information to God knows who for years and years?
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Fair point but this technology is inclusive, it empowers. They can put CCTV up wherever they like if it makes people feel safer. Vaccine passports is an entirely different animal.
 
EdgeOfTheAlps said:
So you want or at least, by your own admission accept, otherwise healthy people to die because you prefer to restrict vaccinations to the more obviously vulnerable only?

Surely by having everyone who can be vaccinated, vaccinated is the way to reduce and eliminate restrictions and lockdowns? To be against vaccinations AND against restrictions is to not only accept mass death by covid but also many other illnesses as hospitals and health systems become overwhelmed.
Click to expand...

If you are vulnerable and refuse a vaccination you are putting yourself at great risk. It is their choice. If you had only vaccinated those vulnerable and not 90% of the population the current effect would be no different. How many people who are not set as vulnerable died from the virus ? The average age of death is 80.
 
Papper said:
If you are vulnerable and refuse a vaccination you are putting yourself at great risk. It is their choice. If you had only vaccinated those vulnerable and not 90% of the population the current effect would be no different. How many people who are not set as vulnerable died from the virus ? The average age of death is 80.
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How many have not died but required hospital treatment? How much has that treatment cost the nhs (us) in terms of actual resources and opportunity cost of delaying other treatments to other differently vulnerable people

It seems very expensive compared to the cost of vaccinating an individual.
 
You are also putting others at risk! Contagions don’t stop at you! That’s why they’re dangerous in the first place!
 
darlowolf64 said:
If they are unvaccinated and end up in hospital, stopping people get Cancer and other treatments, they are clearly "vulnerable"!
And because of their refusal to vaccinate (because they're alright jack) other people are dying.
Who decides who is vulnerable and who decides who doesn't need the vaccine?
Click to expand...

Lockdowns have had a catastrophic effect on cancer diagnosis, the socio-economic well being and the mental health of people. I hear what you are saying but I would rather divert a few billion to the NHS from the war machine than restrict the freedoms of people who really are at no special risk from the virus.
 
Papper said:
If you are vulnerable and refuse a vaccination you are putting yourself at great risk. It is their choice. If you had only vaccinated those vulnerable and not 90% of the population the current effect would be no different. How many people who are not set as vulnerable died from the virus ? The average age of death is 80.
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This bloke and I'm sure that there are many others like him.

www.theguardian.com

The life and tragic death of John Eyers – a fitness fanatic who refused the vaccine

He did triathlons, bodybuilding and mountain climbing and became sceptical of the Covid jab. Then, at 42, he contracted the virus
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Papper said:
Lockdowns have had a catastrophic effect on cancer diagnosis, the socio-economic well being and the mental health of people. I hear what you are saying but I would rather divert a few billion to the NHS from the war machine than restrict the freedoms of people who really are at no special risk from the virus.
Click to expand...
Pray tell who these divinely touched people are?
 
If you don't get very wide spread vaccination you get what we have now - variants developing in communities with lower resistance to the virus. In this case its because of vaccine nationalism, but it could equally be as a consequence of anti-vaxxers in the future.
 
AndyWolves said:
How many have not died but required hospital treatment? How much has that treatment cost the nhs (us) in terms of actual resources and opportunity cost of delaying other treatments to other differently vulnerable people

It seems very expensive compared to the cost of vaccinating an individual.
Click to expand...

Should society also demonise the overweight and/or those who live unhealthy lifestyle that may also be a burden on the NHS? Should they refuse treatment to the drunks that cause havoc across the weekend tying up police resources, ambulances and NHS staff.
 
Papper said:
Should society also demonise the overweight and/or those who live unhealthy lifestyle that may also be a burden on the NHS? Should they refuse treatment to the drunks that cause havoc across the weekend tying up police resources, ambulances and NHS staff.
Click to expand...
No, but the treatments for those are neither as quick, easy, or foolproof as popping to the pharmacy for 15 minutes to get poked with something that CANNOT HURT YOU.
 
Papper said:
Should society also demonise the overweight and/or those who live unhealthy lifestyle that may also be a burden on the NHS? Should they refuse treatment to the drunks that cause havoc across the weekend tying up police resources, ambulances and NHS staff.
Click to expand...
Those aren't problems you can largely mitigate with a couple of injections.
 
Alan said:
No, but the treatments for those are neither as quick, easy, or foolproof as popping to the pharmacy for 15 minutes to get poked with something that CANNOT HURT YOU.
Click to expand...

I prefer my own immune system. I took my own risk assessment.
 
I have a situation where two non vaxed have been pinged as contacts and now have to isolate for 10 days. They are expecting to be paid of course.

Interesting dilemma.
 
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