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Coronavirus

North Shropshire Lad

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Again, to play devils advocate, cleaners are more likely to die than teachers so shouldn't we first vaccine all the cleaners? Or taxi drivers, they're more likely to die too
Why are cleaners more likely to die? Genuine question.
Don't many/most cleaners work when the place they are cleaning is closed and so have little or no contact with other members of the public?
 

Tredman

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Again, to play devils advocate, cleaners are more likely to die than teachers so shouldn't we first vaccine all the cleaners? Or taxi drivers, they're more likely to die too
Thats the rub for me - we should vaccinate those most at risk of death or serious health implications first.
 

Tredman

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Why are cleaners more likely to die? Genuine question.
Don't many/most cleaners work when the place they are cleaning is closed and so have little or no contact with other members of the public?
I'd imagine it probably related to poverty - seems to be the biggest indicator of risk after pre-existing conditions. Plus, unfortunately, most are on zero hours contracts so staying at home off work is not an option.
 

North Shropshire Lad

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Given that nearly as many teachers per 100,000 have died as cleaners and that schools have only been open for a fraction of the time, I would suggest that teachers are more at risk than cleaners. You can do what you like with stats, hence me asking why are cleaners more likely to die when they can work in isolation or a closed environment [much of the time].

To come across all Simon Jordan, I have no dog in this fight and appreciate others will have so feel differently. To me when the opportunity is there to vaccinate a profession in a day or two at most before the return of schools, I can't believe it's not being done.

If that then means others in high risk groups are vaccinated en masse before their sectors return or we vaccinate BAME groups [for example] based on their higher threat, then I think that is a good idea too. If that pushes us 50+ relatively safe, working from home, currently healthy individuals back a month or six weeks, so be it. Not everyone looks at this through purely selfish eyes, I certainly don't.
 
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AndyWolves

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Given that nearly as many teachers per 100,000 have died as cleaners and that schools have only been open for a fraction of the time, I would suggest that teachers are more at risk than cleaners. You can do what you like with stats, hence me asking why are cleaners more likely to die when they can work in isolation or a closed environment [much of the time].

To come I across all Simon Jordan, I have no dog in this fight and appreciate others will have so feel differently. To me when the opportunity is there to vaccinate a profession in a day or two at most before the return of schools, I can't believe it's not being done.

If that then mean others in high risk groups are vaccinated en masse before their sectors return or we vaccinate BAME groups [for example] based on their higher threat, then I think that is a good idea too. If that pushes us 50+ relatively safe, working from home, currently health individuals back a month or six weeks, so be it. Not everyone looks at this through purely selfish eyes, I certainly don't.
I have no dog either, but even allowing for the duration of schools being open there are clearly professions that suffer more deaths than teachers. It seems unfair to them if teachers all got vaccinated first?

Vaccination priority can only be done in a fair way based on the data around likeliness to suffer death or complications.

The lockdown measures were always about keeping pressure of the NHS whilst we try to have a functioning society.
 

Dire Wolf

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The demographic of teachers, especially in primary schools, would indicate that they tend not to be in the most vulnerable bracket. But this isn't a willy waving contest about who should or shouldn't just jump to the front of the vaccine queue. Most other professions are still being asked to stay home and will be for many more weeks. Schools are opening in less than a fortnight and there is STILL uncertainty around the spread of the new variants amongst children. The report posted earlier goes up until Dec 2020 and largely ignores the data of the new mutations which, early indicators show, spread quickly in children. Why should school staff and their families be the lab rats that take one for the team?
 

lemonjelly

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Think the schools going back could be a bit strange in some ways. Back on 8 march. They break up for easter after 3 weeks don't they? Wonder how the 2 week easter closure will affect transmission rates?
 

AndyWolves

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The demographic of teachers, especially in primary schools, would indicate that they tend not to be in the most vulnerable bracket. But this isn't a willy waving contest about who should or shouldn't just jump to the front of the vaccine queue. Most other professions are still being asked to stay home and will be for many more weeks. Schools are opening in less than a fortnight and there is STILL uncertainty around the spread of the new variants amongst children. The report posted earlier goes up until Dec 2020 and largely ignores the data of the new mutations which, early indicators show, spread quickly in children. Why should school staff and their families be the lab rats that take one for the team?

Do you want all families vaccinated too?
 

lemonjelly

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The demographic of teachers, especially in primary schools, would indicate that they tend not to be in the most vulnerable bracket. But this isn't a willy waving contest about who should or shouldn't just jump to the front of the vaccine queue. Most other professions are still being asked to stay home and will be for many more weeks. Schools are opening in less than a fortnight and there is STILL uncertainty around the spread of the new variants amongst children. The report posted earlier goes up until Dec 2020 and largely ignores the data of the new mutations which, early indicators show, spread quickly in children. Why should school staff and their families be the lab rats that take one for the team?
again I think (like a few others) that occupation is potentially too broad a brush. why teachers and not staff within universities for example? Prioritising one occupation will merely create more arguments than it resolves.
 

lemonjelly

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Why are they looking at Vaccine passports for UK related matters? I wouldn't be happy as a 20 year old, having missed out on a year of socialising, to be told that those who you were protecting by following the rules will be supping ale in the pubs whilst you have to wait until the autumn.
Yes, but the really important fact, that you haven't mentioned, is WILL THESE PASSPORTS BE BLUE?
 

sycophantia

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Thats the rub for me - we should vaccinate those most at risk of death or serious health implications first.
Surely we've already vaccinated the most vulnerable? For me next in line should be teachers, retail and other professions that deal with large numbers of the general public....if that means I've got to wait a few weeks then so be it.
 

Kenny

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Think the schools going back could be a bit strange in some ways. Back on 8 march. They break up for easter after 3 weeks don't they? Wonder how the 2 week easter closure will affect transmission rates?
The Easter Holidays is actually a perfect break. Half way through the break the data coming from the schools returning will be available so a good early indicator on how things are going.
 

AndyWolves

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Surely we've already vaccinated the most vulnerable? For me next in line should be teachers, retail and other professions that deal with large numbers of the general public....if that means I've got to wait a few weeks then so be it.
I don't disagree with this approach, but I'd go in order of people most likely to die from Covid rather than the interactions they have.
 

lemonjelly

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The Easter Holidays is actually a perfect break. Half way through the break the data coming from the schools returning will be available so a good early indicator on how things are going.
in theory, although Whitty said yesterday they need 4 weeks data to be informative, and a week to analyse it, hence the 5 weeks in between each stage.

One thing that did occur to me is it could help the kids and staff, as a sort of phased return.

Anecdotally, all the closures/isolations I am aware of (tiny sample) were because teaching staff/other school staff had symptoms, not pupils. One stepdaughter is working in a special needs school, and their bubbles have been very well implemented, and contained the one outbreak they did have.
 

Kenny

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in theory, although Whitty said yesterday they need 4 weeks data to be informative, and a week to analyse it, hence the 5 weeks in between each
They will know after 2-3 weeks. The extra week is so they have enough time to explain it to Boris without using crayons and big pictures.
 

Tredman

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Surely we've already vaccinated the most vulnerable? For me next in line should be teachers, retail and other professions that deal with large numbers of the general public....if that means I've got to wait a few weeks then so be it.
From yesterday it seems key is all over 50 and people with underlying problems. Don’t think we have done all those yet.

As LJ said above, if we start prioritising professions ahead of those at risk of dying it will just become a bunfight of who is at risk more - and we don’t have enough data to decide that, outside of primary care workers.
 
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