Coronavirus

[AndyWolves]

Please don't get me wrong here, I'd happily lockdown if the NHS was in danger of being overwhelmed as that would definitely save lives.

 

[AndyWolves]

If we did put in further restrictions now, when would they be lifted? What would the criteria be?

 

[WolfMan]

but vaccinations do have a positive impact on transmission.

again, no-one is saying lockdown. but it feels a number of people would be happy with more stringent guidance on safety in place. currently, we don't really have anything in place to minimise the spread, aside from what was a world beating vax programme, which is now a bog standard vax prog, surpassed by many other countries.
and the vaccine effectiveness wanes over time, so betting purely on a vax programme is ultimately going to lose. combined with millions not being vaccinated, for whatever reason, means we are risking overwhelming the nhs, and therefore the lockdown you, and so many others wish to avoid.

If it's not lockdowns, what is it? Masks? They don't reduce transmission sufficiently to stop eventual exponential growth. If they did we wouldn't have needed lockdowns in the first place. The idea that having these "soft" measures will slow it down isn't right, as long as the R number is above 1 the growth will be exponential and you'll end up having huge case numbers, the only thing that will bring the r number below 1 is lockdown.

 

[Alan]

Nowhere near Alan, I'll abide by any restrictions put in place. Whether I agree with them or not is another matter.

I was fully on board with everything we were doing until we got to the point where it turned out vaccinations don't stop infection or transmission. Once that fact became known it is then just a matter of time before everyone is exposed to Covid.

I'm allowed to have a differing view

Didn't say you weren't allowed your view, just trying to make the point that when public health is involved, it should behoove us (the public) to take measures to preserve that health. It won't bring us to zero (if we ever get there), but the "if I won't, someone else will" ideology is one I take a massive issue with. I know you haven't made that exact argument but the parallels are there.

It worries me to hear people talk about it that way. And please trust that I am not trying to have a go at you personally.

 

[Alan]

If it's not lockdowns, what is it? Masks? They don't reduce transmission sufficiently to stop eventual exponential growth. If they did we wouldn't have needed lockdowns in the first place. The idea that having these "soft" measures will slow it down isn't right, as long as the R number is above 1 the growth will be exponential and you'll end up having huge case numbers, the only thing that will bring the r number below 1 is lockdown.

How do you figure that? I'd be willing to bet that it's not that masks are ineffective, it's that people are ineffective at wearing masks.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Masks are theatre really, they don't do shit.

 

[Alan]

Unfortunately the research is mixed, but at least it feels like something.

 

[AndyWolves]

Didn't say you weren't allowed your view, just trying to make the point that when public health is involved, it should behoove us (the public) to take measures to preserve that health. It won't bring us to zero (if we ever get there), but the "if I won't, someone else will" ideology is one I take a massive issue with. I know you haven't made that exact argument but the parallels are there.

It worries me to hear people talk about it that way. And please trust that I am not trying to have a go at you personally.

I don't think I've said anything like that. I have and will take personal responsibility.

Without wanting to derail the thread I fear climate change will have a much bigger impact than Covid will and I do everything I can to minimise my impact on the planet.

 

[Alan]

I don't think I've said anything like that. I have and will take personal responsibility.

Without wanting to derail the thread I fear climate change will have a much bigger impact than Covid will and I do everything I can to minimise my impact on the planet.

Fair enough, mate, I'll leave it alone. I apologize if I came off accusatory.

 

[WolfMan]

How do you figure that? I'd be willing to bet that it's not that masks are ineffective, it's that people are ineffective at wearing masks.

Maybe I should have said mask mandates, but it doesn't really matter what's causing them to be ineffective, just that they are.

 

[Alan]

The realist in me probably does have to agree with that sentiment.

 

[PuntsWolf]

We’ve got significantly less people critically ill than France or Germany despite way more cases.

So that surely means we’re doing really well?

 

[AndyWolves]

We’ve got significantly less people critically ill than France or Germany despite way more cases.

So that surely means we’re doing really well?

I don't know how testing works in those countries but we've done 3, 4 maybe even 5 times the total tests they have.

That couldn't be a factor could it?

 

[PuntsWolf]

I don't know how testing works in those countries but we've done 3, 4 maybe even 5 times the total tests they have.

That couldn't be a factor could it?

- Significantly more tests.
- Patients in hospital still pretty steady as it has been for last 3 months despite no restrictions. The slight increase can easily be explained by season, immunity waning, more spread.
- ventilated patients was actually decreasing since September until the last week.

You can interpret the data however you want but nothing there tells you they’re doing any worse a job. Banging the “cases are out of control” drum is stupid when a) community spread is literally the plan b) we’re doing more tests (and theres millions of LFTs that aren’t even logged) c) healthcare isn’t overwhelmed

 

[WolfmanOz]

Please don't get me wrong here, I'd happily lockdown if the NHS was in danger of being overwhelmed as that would definitely save lives.

The purpose of the NHS surely is to allow you to live your lives to the fullest and longest, without having to worry unduly about getting ill or paying massive bills for healthcare. It is there to treat you when you are sick and, from time to time, to check on you to make sure you are not about to get sick in order to prevent the worst from happening. The rest of the time, you should be able to forget about it.

Unfortunately, the NHS seems to lurch from one crisis to another, held together at the seams by the hard work of doctors, nurses and all the rest. An honest discussion about the NHS’s failings and the lessons everyone could learn from other countries about how best to run a healthcare system is long overdue.

The cult-like status of the NHS not only prevents that discussion from happening, but it has also made it the responsibility of every citizen to protect the NHS, rather than the other way around. The past two years have shown that even the most basic freedoms can be sacrificed to keep the show on the road.

 

[AndyWolves]

I quite like the way the NHS works, at least in principle.

Health care should be a right, not a privilege.

I would not want to see an insurance based system brought in.

 

[Tony Towner]

View attachment 4503

You can interpret the data however you want but nothing there tells you they’re doing any worse a job.

Deaths being 4 times higher than any other country in Europe is a pretty powerful one and the only metric that really matters

 

[James]

Masks are theatre really, they don't do shit.

Hit the nail on the head… do we need full hazmat suits to go out to a footy match or for a pint?

 

[WolfMan]

Deaths being 4 times higher than any other country in Europe is a pretty powerful one and the only metric that really matters

We lifted our restrictions earlier so there will be an element of the rest of Europe not having caught up with us yet.

Also it's just a sad fact we're going to have one of the highest death tolls due to the fact we're one of the most overweight countries on the planet:

Covid-19: Highest death rates seen in countries with most overweight populations

Covid-19 death rates are 10 times higher in countries where more than half of the adult population is classified as overweight, a comprehensive report from the World Obesity Federation has found. The report analysed mortality data from Johns Hopkins University and the WHO Global Health...

www.bmj.com

Obesity warning as report shows nine out of 10 COVID-19 deaths have been in countries with high rates of obesity

The link between obesity and severe outcomes from COVID-19 is not new but the extent of the danger is revealed in a new report.

www.google.com

Weiterleitungshinweis

www.google.com

 

[PuntsWolf]

Deaths being 4 times higher than any other country in Europe is a pretty powerful one and the only metric that really matters

But it doesn’t add up? You can’t have less people seriously ill but drastically more deaths. You are either extremely unlucky, they have a magic medicine they aren’t sharing, a much more vulnerable population or most likely they way the data is recorded isn’t the same.