Wolves 2-2 Spurs: EFL Cup 3rd Rd - Bah Lost on Penalties Verdict Thread

[Elephant Pyjamas]

The issue I see with those metrics is that e s purely subjective. What constitutes a chance for you and me are probably different. I think we created one half chance against Brentford which you've detailed. For me it's an opportunity you'd expect someone to score from but from what youve detailed here, your bar is lower.

But i've quoted an independent metric that has measured all games and players that has Adama as one of the most creative players in the league, but that's just been dismissed.

From my own subjective list, i separated the "big chances" from the chances.

If that header against Brentford from Raul isn't considered a big chance, then fuck knows what is.

 

[Tredman]

For the love of god (and all our sanity) please can the mods re-open the Traore thread.

 

[Tony Towner]

Missed a few there pal, such as the header he put on a plate for Raul against Brentford, it's not just you that forgets this though, everyone seems to have, Traore did everything right there, only for Raul to fuck it up.

I haven't forgotten anything. I just watched the 3 minute highlights from each game that Sky put up and that's what was shown in each one.

 

[WsWolf]

Thing is, Adama criticism does veer in hate/agenda territory. He's thick as pig shit. No brain. Waste of a shirt. Should be sold. Talk about him spannering everything constantly, when actually he often has some pretty sublime ball control. All the gripes about his greasy arms and sitting down after being fouled.

You could get personal with every player in the squad if you wanted, they all can frustrate or exhibit poor form, but it's mainly Adama who gets that microscopic treatment.

Any of his achievements while wearing a Wolves shirt are damned with faint praise, and I think he gets a pretty raw deal; he's actually one of our own players ffs!

To redress this balance I have to come off as an Adama fanboy, when that's not even the case!

Some of that you are right on but I haven't seen a lot of that on here at least. I think he gets that treatment because of the perception that he's an elite player, especially from non wolves fans. He does have great close control though, much better feet than he's given credit for.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I haven't forgotten anything. I just watched the 3 minute highlights from each game that Sky put up and that's what was shown in each one.

So Sky didn't show Raul's header from 8 yards that he put a foot wide?

What else did they miss!

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Wasn't even a particularly great chance that one. Not like he put it over the bar like Fabio did vs Spurs last season.

MOTD didn't show it either.

If you want to pretend Adama should have 12 assists so far then fine, I don't need a crap colour coded spreadsheet to tell me that's nonsense.

 

[Tony Towner]

I thought it was a decent independent evaluation

 

[WsWolf]

But i've quoted an independent metric that has measured all games and players that has Adama as one of the most creative players in the league, but that's just been dismissed.

But that metric to me means nothing because it's subjective, even if independent it counts stuff that I don't agree are chances. Adama benefits from the low bar there because for his faults it's rare his runs don't end up in some kind of delivery so he has a large volume of those actions.

You could have someone who's beat 3 men and the keeper and squared for an empty net tap in and it counts the same as a cross to a striker 12 yards out surrounded by 3 lumps.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Wasn't even a particularly great chance that one. Not like he put it over the bar like Fabio did vs Spurs last season.

MOTD didn't show it either.

If you want to pretend Adama should have 12 assists so far then fine, I don't need a crap colour coded spreadsheet to tell me that's nonsense.

MOTD didn't show the header? Pretty sure they did, as it lead to Raul throwing his headband off and that became a talking point.

Can you just stop being so indignant? You're now criticising the fact it's colour coded, grow up yeah?

Those stats come from the Premier League, whether you agree with them or not, they are a an independent metric that are used across all the games and all the players, and both Raul and Adama are right up there on the chance creation.

 

[AndyWolves]

So despite Adamas obvious limitations he's still statistically our best option for creating chances

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

But that metric to me means nothing because it's subjective, even if independent it counts stuff that I don't agree are chances. Adama benefits from the low bar there because for his faults it's rare his runs don't end up in some kind of delivery so he has a large volume of those actions.

You could have someone who's beat 3 men and the keeper and squared for an empty net tap in and it counts the same as a cross to a striker 12 yards out surrounded by 3 lumps.

No, because your example counts as a BIG CHANCE rather than a CHANCE.

"But that metric to me means nothing because it's subjective, even if independent it counts stuff that I don't agree are chances."

Even so, Adama has created more of the subjective chances than all the other players below him that are also subjective chances!

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

So despite Adamas obvious limitations he's still statistically our best option for creating chances

Exactly.

So dropping him would be a bit daft, that's not to say i don't want him to operate on the inside left as he was, i do.

 

[prawnking]

don’t think anyone can argue traore is one of our main creative outlets. And his output should be higher than what it is.

I mean, you can't really argue against it as he literally holds our record for PL assists (I love repeating that).

Neves should score a lot more, Moutinho should work his set plays better, Semedo should assist or score at some point too, given Doc managed to do in a similar role.

We don't have perfect players.

 

[prawnking]

So despite Adamas obvious limitations he's still statistically our best option for creating chances

It's almost like there's a reason the current and previous professional, trophy-winning football managers at the club keep picking him...

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

MOTD didn't show the header? Pretty sure they did, as it lead to Raul throwing his headband off and that became a talking point.

Can you just stop being so indignant? You're now criticising the fact it's colour coded, grow up yeah?

Those stats come from the Premier League, whether you agree with them or not, they are a an independent metric that are used across all the games and all the players, and both Raul and Adama are right up there on the chance creation.

Steady on there fella.

So our forwards are great, but we have scored one goal. I am confused.

 

[WsWolf]

Even so, Adama has created more of the subjective chances than all the other players below him that are also subjective chances!

This is mental haha, think I'll just bow out as we are going in circles.

 

[Tony Towner]

I mean, you can't really argue against it as he literally holds our record for PL assists (I love repeating that).

Unless you are being very selective in your frame of reference ie 1 season then he doesn't
Moutinho 15
Jimenez 13
Traore 12

 

[WsWolf]

Unless you are being very selective in your frame of reference ie 1 season then he doesn't
Moutinho 15
Jimenez 13
Traore 12

He does mean one season record.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Steady on there fella.

So our forwards are great, but we have scored one goal. I am confused.

No our finishing is fucking woeful, which is why slamming Traore for his assists is crazy, as it's the finishing (of which he has been terrible too) which is the problem, not the chance creation - particularly from Adama.

Also i was getting to be on board with Raul being dropped, but when you think about the number of chances he too has created, then it's not such a good idea. We just need to finish the fuckers, it's about composure, something that Podence certainly has, and hopefully Hwang does too.

 

[Johnny75]

Changes created just means how many of their passes have led to shots basically. So Raul has set up 15 shots. They could be 15 Neves shots from distance. Hence why xA is more useful

I can only think of one clear cut chance Adama has created.

There should be an xA per chance somewhere which would prove the quality of the chances. No good creating 15 chances if you only have a 0.01 chance of scoring.

I'd ike to see the amount of crosses that didn't create a chance too. Where the stats fall down is they don't account for the quality of the ball or the player it's created for

You'd then get an idea of the sheer quality/ wastefulness of a player.