Keir Starmer at it again..

[pr0sl0]

Nah, I won't have that. Momentum is not the bogeyman that it's been made out to be, at all.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Nah, I won't have that. Momentum is not the bogeyman that it's been made out to be, at all.

Indeed. Tabloid crap.

The Labour right: The left is too tribal. We all need to compromise.
Also the Labour right: Fuck off Momentum you commie pricks!

 

[Templeton Peck]

I'm not interested in whataboutery.

Specifically RLB was an idiot for retweeting that without reading it properly, then she was a moron for not deleting it and apologising, and Peake is a wanker and I want nothing to do with people who hold those kind of views.

You can't sack one MP for anti-semitism and keep another who praises a Nazi sympathiser. You say whataboutery I say hypocrisy. It also weakens his position.

 

[Tredman]

It doesn’t tend to be the labour ‘right’ hounding people for not having pure views. Just take a look at the responses to any shadow cabinet member on twitter - it’s a cesspit, and often a misogynistic and anti-Semitic cesspit.

 

[Templeton Peck]

It doesn’t tend to be the labour ‘right’ hounding people for not having pure views. Just take a look at the responses to any shadow cabinet member on twitter - it’s a cesspit, and often a misogynistic and anti-Semitic cesspit.

The Labour right tend to attack the left for being too extreme or too stupid or anti-semitic.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Or too unelectable.

 

[BGreenWolf]

You can't sack one MP for anti-semitism and keep another who praises a Nazi sympathiser. You say whataboutery I say hypocrisy. It also weakens his position.

We're still on the Astor thing?

There is an enormous difference between retweeting and praising one specific contemporary interview that espouses anti-Semetic conspiracy theories, and generally praising one highly influential MP who, while being a Nazi sympathiser, is being praised for reasons entirely separate to that viewpoint- namely, being the first woman to speak in Parliament. Like it or not, Astor was a trailblazer, and the example she set was one that was vitally important to the development of Parliament as an institution- you can celebrate that, without endorsing her viewpoints. RLB, on the other hand, directly endorsed an interview featuring an unfounded slander, and refused to back down or apologise for it even after the person who gave the interview apologised.

If Reeves had signal-boosted a specific bit of Nazism that Astor believed and spoke enthusiastically about it, that would be an equivalent. As it is, the comparison IS pure whataboutery, and fairly half-baked whataboutery to boot.

 

[pr0sl0]

Hah, and here we are, exactly what I was talking about. But the other side!!!

FWIW, I think it's fairly cut and dry with Reeves. Astor wasn't even the first woman to be elected as an MP - Constance Markievicz was, but of course she was the wrong kind of trailblazer... - and Astor was a controversial person, considered racist, even by the standards of the time. It's as, if not more, explicitly problematic and hypocritical than anything that happened under/to Corbyn which was considered enough for people to call for censure, resignation, or drumming out of public life. (I would also say that any suggestion that the left is especially factional is really unreflective of anything other than which factionalism is publicly visible. Other groups, behind the scenes? Hoo boy.)

But then that's not the point, is it? The fact that this is any kind of debate at all is a sign of failure of the left, and of the wider political system, because we're once again having a ding-dong about whose racism is "worse". As long as we're stuck in this loop, we've already lost, as have different communities who get to be used as grenades to be lugged over no man's land at the other side. And believe me, there are a lot of pissed off black lifelong Labour voters right now who feel like they're being made the new scapegoats by a party which can't handle the bare minimum of being consistently anti-racist in every direction. And, with Astor, the fact that someone so clearly abhorrent can get a statue put up of them in 2019 does rather prove the point that British politics only really cares about bigotry and prejudice whenever it's politically useful.

(Also, while I agree that RLB's ignorance over the Peake interview was unacceptable, I feel like I should point out that she didn't actually highlight the Israel comment or make any reference to it or quote it? And also she did eventually apologise, as did Peake? The chain of events was she tweeted the link, plus the line "Maxine Peake is a diamond", and the problem was the casual insertion of Israel into the list of causes of the death of George Floyd by Peake in an aside and RLB not noticing anything wrong with that. She was told to apologise and say something to the effect of "I do not agree with this misinformation about Israel", she instead put out some vague "I don't agree with everything in here" follow-up, Starmer said "nope, if you're going to play games like this, you're out" and sacked her, and then she apologised. Peake also apologised, although earlier I think. Not the most important point here, but it's strange to see people talk about it as if RLB was jumping up and down in a keffiyeh when the problem was she was too ignorant to even realise what she'd done. Bit like Corbyn and the mural.)

 

[Tony Towner]

Reeves said she was the first woman to make a speech in Parliament, not the first to be elected. I struggle to see the equivalence between her Twitter post and that of RLB's even though I remain to be convinced that Maxine Peake's article was anti-semitic rather than anti-Zionist. She heard something which was factually inaccurate and chose to believe it because it suited her narrative. That narrative is anti Israel not anti Jew. She may be both but that's supposition.

 

[BGreenWolf]

Reeves said she was the first woman to make a speech in Parliament, not the first to be elected.

Quite right, of course- got myself tied in knots over that one.

Point still stands, mind.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Quite right, of course- got myself tied in knots over that one.

Point still stands, mind.

I'm sorry but as Proslo put it you just wouldn't be defending the Reeves thing if this was happening on Corbyn's watch.

 

[BGreenWolf]

I'm sorry but as Proslo put it you just wouldn't be defending the Reeves thing if this was happening on Corbyn's watch.

I genuinely don’t see a scenario where I’m that exercised about it, given the context. If RLB has done it, or even Corbyn himself, I still wouldn’t care, because the reason she was praised is ENTIRELY separate to her Nazi sympathies, unlike with the Peake interview’s relation to anti-Semitism.

It would be incredibly easy to turn that around and say that you’re only interested in it as a stick to beat Starmer with, and neither of us could conceivably convince the other that that isn’t the case.

 

[pr0sl0]

...but the anti-semitism in Peake's interview wasn't the central point either, and RLB was praising the interview because of the stuff about how people should stay in Labour and not leave just because Corbyn isn't leader any more? Peake's comment about Israel was one line, an aside, and not central to her point. That's why it was a problem, because casually inserting Israel into stuff that they're not at the centre of is a classic way of conflating anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. It's anti-semitism through neglect of thought, or lack of care, or ignorance (however you want to put it).

The Reeves thing is so galling because it is exactly the same. Who cares that she was the first woman to give a speech in parliament? Her main legacy is to have been a nasty anti-semite who spent most of the 30s hanging out with her rich friends in Hampstead and hoping that that nice Mr Hitler would finally sort those nasty Jews out, once and for all. Unqualified praise of her that doesn't acknowledge that bigger picture is disturbing if racism, including anti-semitism, is meant to be treated as the serious issue that many MPs including Reeves explicitly argued when Corbyn was leader. It's why so many on the left get so wound up about this - not only does anti-racism only get lip service most of the time in British politics, but anti-semitism is clearly only ever taken as seriously as it should be when it comes from the left. And it then leads to this dead-end dynamic where the left gets wound up over and over again, arguing "...but it's not just a left-wing problem, look, it's happening here and here and here and here and...", and we never get onto the substantive thing of actually trying to fix it, whether alone or (I would hope) working across the spectrum. This is what people mean when they say that anti-semitism was weaponised against the left (well, the people who aren't just blind to actual anti-semitism, and fuck me is that still a whole depressing thing too). They know we're too predictable in taking the bait like the fools we are.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

“Those people who were normally Labour supporters who felt they couldn’t vote Labour? Well I’m sorry, they voted Tory as far as I’m concerned,” says Peake. “And it breaks my heart, because you know what? I didn’t like Tony Blair, but I still voted Labour because anything’s better than the Tories. There’s a lot of people who should hang their heads in shame. People going, ‘Oh, I can join the Labour Party again because Keir Starmer’s there,’ well shame on you.”

“You know what, at the end of the day, all I want is the Tories out. I think people will get behind Starmer, won’t they? He’s a more acceptable face of the Labour Party for a lot of people who are not really left wing. But that’s fine. Whatever.

Well I'm sorry I'm not pure enough for you, Maxine. Maybe I'll just stick with the Green Party as they seem like nice people with nice beliefs rather than utter wankers. Since when did I care about success anyway, I'm a writer.

If you don't see that people like her are part of the problem that Labour face, you are the problem.

 

[pr0sl0]

Hah yeah and that too - not a great thing to be endorsing purely from the perspective of collective cabinet responsibility, Becky!!

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

That's the thing. She's backed down on the false Israel stuff (kind of), but unequivocally not that bit.

 

[visage]

You can't sack one MP for anti-semitism and keep another who praises a Nazi sympathiser. You say whataboutery I say hypocrisy. It also weakens his position.

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountr...-ministerial-candidates-come-to-west-country/

In Plymouth, Prime Minister Boris Johnson was there to see the statue on the day it was unveiled. While Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn praised Conservative Nancy Astor's legacy saying: "I'm really pleased the statue is going up".

Given that the usual suspects arent condemning Corbyn for similar comments we can only conclude the demands for Reeves to be disciplined are based on factionalism and should, therefore, be ignored.

 

[BGreenWolf]

I believe we call that a mic drop.

 

[Templeton Peck]

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountr...-ministerial-candidates-come-to-west-country/



Given that the usual suspects arent condemning Corbyn for similar comments we can only conclude the demands for Reeves to be disciplined are based on factionalism and should, therefore, be ignored.

Corbyn and Johnson aren't in Starmer's cabinet. He's said he's made rebuilding trust with the Jewish community his number one priority.

 

[Tony Towner]

Another anti-semitic tweet. Although I wasn't aware that puppet master was a Jewish trope and doubt Steve Reed meant it that way. He's now deleted it and Keir wants a chat.