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Shamima Begum

tredman said:
Even if you do believe they get paid enough - what's the answer? She doesn't get legal representation?
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tempting. If she were asking plenty of other "westernised" countries I reckon the answer would be no. She has a problem now her child has passed. The baby had the UK rights with no chance of criminal charges.
 
Cyber-_-man said:
tempting. If she were asking plenty of other "westernised" countries I reckon the answer would be no. She has a problem now her child has passed. The baby had the UK rights with no chance of criminal charges.
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So innocent until proven guilty is out dependent on a whim of right wingers? Nice, David Lammy was entirely correct at the weekend.
 
Cyber-_-man said:
Police officer pay now starts at 19k
Firefighter starts 22k
Nurse 22k- qualified
Teacher starts 23k
Lawyer starst 25k-40k
My figures are accurate. Austerity and changes to starting salaries since 2010.

I repeat, I am not crying in my soup for lawyers.
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Starts at. So zero experience. Not sure many jobs will start you at that sort of money with zero experience - I’m sure a firm of lawyers wouldn’t.
 
tredman said:
So innocent until proven guilty is out dependent on a whim of right wingers? Nice, David Lammy was entirely correct at the weekend.
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You think it’s just ‘right wingers’ that don’t want her to return?
 
Penk Wolf said:
You think it’s just ‘right wingers’ that don’t want her to return?
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No, but I would imagine its mainly right wingers who would want to throw her in jail without a trial.
 
Austerity isn’t really to blame here. Legal Aid has had a reputation as impossible to make pay since at least the time I was getting through law school in the early nineties.
 
tredman said:
No, but I would imagine its mainly right wingers who would want to throw her in jail without a trial.
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They don't want to do that, they don't want her back in the country in the first place.
 
SLA said:
Yeah, that policeman pay stat is a bit cherry picky - https://www.policeoracle.com/pay_and_conditions/police_pay_scales.html
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I have two students. One is going to a law firm , one is joining the police. Both have a law degree. The starting salary is the starting salary. The girl going to the law firm is getting 28k. The police officer is starting on 19 , albeit he will get an increase in his first and second years, he will be several years in before he gets 28k. Now granted, there is no requirement for a law degree to get in the police. The argument was being made that Lawyers are basically giving their time for free doing legal aid work.
 
Cyber-_-man said:
I have two students. One is going to a law firm , one is joining the police. Both have a law degree. The starting salary is the starting salary. The girl going to the law firm is getting 28k. The police officer is starting on 19 , albeit he will get an increase in his first and second years, he will be several years in before he gets 28k. Now granted, there is no requirement for a law degree to get in the police. The argument was being made that Lawyers are basically giving their time for free doing legal aid work.
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You're comparing apples and trousers.
 
arklowolf said:
Legal Aid? Wonder which lawyers will be trousering that?
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Worth every penny. Justice at any cost, particularly if it keeps the public safe. The dilemma is when brainwashing/conditioning becomes a defence.
 
Paddingtonwolf said:
I have never said that have I? I have said that legal aid work doesn’t pay. Huge difference.
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And I said they were better paid than a number of essential service professions but got the" comparing apples with trousers" comment, but got no response to asking a direct question other than a little nibble from yourself.

From my experience legal aid qualification has become much tighter, however the firms I know are not soley legal aid ( just like my dentist is not solely private) so they make their money , just in other ways and do the legal aid stuff for reasons other than profit. And that segues nicely into Ms Begum. She is now high profile and this is a high profile case that will attract a lot of interest. I would have thought the lawyer taking her case would know the increase in profile taking and winning such a case would give. Its a game changer. I repeat, I do not think she will struggle for excellent representation, and think she has an excellent chance of challenging any charges.
 
Now here we accidentally seem to trip over ground where we agree (saints preserve us - it is a miracle). Any decent profile representative that acts for Ms Begum will be doing it pro bono as a cause celebre as they can afford a massively loss making case.

So no lawyer will be trousering money from her getting proper representation that is due to her. If anything their practices and chambers will lose money in taking the case.

The real issue with legal aid is that practices can really only afford to offer legal aid work as a loss maker if they have good income streams from other sources. One man or two man partnerships doing a majority of their work as duty solicitor stuff are ANYTHING but get rich quick schemes. That £70 an hour pays the bills, pays the ancillary staff, pays the rent before it is delivering a salary to the lawyer. It is a bit different to comparing starting salaries for newly qualified lawyers especially as those salary averages are massively skewed by the magic circle firms who wouldn’t touch legal aid with a barge pole.
 
Paddingtonwolf said:
Now here we accidentally seem to trip over ground where we agree (saints preserve us - it is a miracle). Any decent profile representative that acts for Ms Begum will be doing it pro bono as a cause celebre as they can afford a massively loss making case.

So no lawyer will be trousering money from her getting proper representation that is due to her. If anything their practices and chambers will lose money in taking the case.

The real issue with legal aid is that practices can really only afford to offer legal aid work as a loss maker if they have good income streams from other sources. One man or two man partnerships doing a majority of their work as duty solicitor stuff are ANYTHING but get rich quick schemes. That £70 an hour pays the bills, pays the ancillary staff, pays the rent before it is delivering a salary to the lawyer. It is a bit different to comparing starting salaries for newly qualified lawyers especially as those salary averages are massively skewed by the magic circle firms who wouldn’t touch legal aid with a barge pole.
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God help the forum.
 
Cyber-_-man said:
And I said they were better paid than a number of essential service professions but got the" comparing apples with trousers" comment, but got no response to asking a direct question other than a little nibble from yourself.

From my experience legal aid qualification has become much tighter, however the firms I know are not soley legal aid ( just like my dentist is not solely private) so they make their money , just in other ways and do the legal aid stuff for reasons other than profit. And that segues nicely into Ms Begum. She is now high profile and this is a high profile case that will attract a lot of interest. I would have thought the lawyer taking her case would know the increase in profile taking and winning such a case would give. Its a game changer. I repeat, I do not think she will struggle for excellent representation, and think she has an excellent chance of challenging any charges.
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Amazingly, I don't just sit here desperately waiting for your reply so we can have an argument.

Do I think lawyers are underpaid? No. Do I think essential services should be better paid? Yes. Are you comparing like with like? No.
Are you setting up an argument that's completely unrelated to whether this lady should get legal aid, or whether legal aid work is adequately compensated? Yes.
 
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