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Stats and Analysis Thread

MARKakaJIM

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Not really, Semedo and RAN are better at being defenders than attackers.

It's like saying you could put Boly in attack and he'd be shit because of the players around him, not because Boly would be shit in attack.

No, it's not like saying that at all.

Wingback and fullback aren't as different as playing centre half and centre forward, though some players have succeeded at both.
 

Elephant Pyjamas

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Steve Walsh, Matt Elliott, Dion Dublin, Chris Sutton, Paul Warhurst, Gary Doherty (!) all managed to play up as a CB and a CF.

I'm not adding to the debate with this at all (and how long ago those players were around says a lot), just was always amazed that players were capable of it.

Any more? I suppose Neil Emblen did too.
 

Tony Towner

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Ian Marshall scored a hat trick against us on the first game of the season for Oldham in the early 90s
Obligatory Paul Cook assist @Deutsch Wolf 😉

 
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Deutsch Wolf

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Steve Walsh, Matt Elliott, Dion Dublin, Chris Sutton, Paul Warhurst, Gary Doherty (!) all managed to play up as a CB and a CF.

I'm not adding to the debate with this at all (and how long ago those players were around says a lot), just was always amazed that players were capable of it.

Any more? I suppose Neil Emblen did too.
Bizarrely - Marcus Gayle!
 

AndyWolves

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No, it's not like saying that at all.

Wingback and fullback aren't as different as playing centre half and centre forward, though some players have succeeded at both.
I did exaggerate, however, a wingback needs to be as much wing as back. I don't think RAN or Semedo can really do the wing part. Jonny has shown that's he's able to more than he used to.
 

Tony Towner

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I did exaggerate, however, a wingback needs to be as much wing as back. I don't think RAN or Semedo can really do the wing part. Jonny has shown that's he's able to more than he used to.
Also a lot depends on the situation they are in TAA was mentioned earlier, he's phenomenal going forward, but can't defend. Put him in a mid to lower table team who are on the back foot more and he'd be a weakness. Robertson is only a little better - Traore has destroyed him before now.
 

AndyWolves

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Also a lot depends on the situation they are in TAA was mentioned earlier, he's phenomenal going forward, but can't defend. Put him in a mid to lower table team who are on the back foot more and he'd be a weakness. Robertson is only a little better - Traore has destroyed him before now.
Yep, fully agree. Put Semedo in Liverpool's team and his better defensive ability would count for little, but Semedos lower attacking output would be very noticeable.
 

Deutsch Wolf

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Also Wan-Bissaka's complete lack of ability going forward is really noticeable for Man Utd who at least theoretically should win and dominate most games.

As they are a clown car of a club they also seem to have ruined him as a defender.
 

MARKakaJIM

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Also a lot depends on the situation they are in TAA was mentioned earlier, he's phenomenal going forward, but can't defend. Put him in a mid to lower table team who are on the back foot more and he'd be a weakness. Robertson is only a little better - Traore has destroyed him before now.

TAA is extremely limited, great delivery when he's got space and takes a good freekick. He's average to poor at everything else.

He'd be wank for Wolves for example, he'd never have the space to deliver those balls because it would take so long to get the ball out to him and the front three don't hit the box like Liverpool's do.
 

MARKakaJIM

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I did exaggerate, however, a wingback needs to be as much wing as back. I don't think RAN or Semedo can really do the wing part. Jonny has shown that's he's able to more than he used to.

It depends on the team and the wider system of play.

I don't see James or Alonso often doing what I'd expect a winger to do. I think got them the biggest difference is the starting position and freedom with which they're allowed to make runs knowing there is the safety of an extra centre half behind.

What allows them to flourish is the positioning/movement of their inside forwards to pull opposition defenders deep or narrow and creating space for them to run into. Combine with the ball players they have in their side who can find them early and it gives them time and space to deliver.

Now granted I don't see any Wolves option likely to start firing over deliveries like James but even if they're getting in behind like that they just have to lash it across goal and see what happens. If you can establish patterns that provide those situations regularly and drum into the front three that they have to hit the box as soon as it goes wide then you'll get chances. It doesn't have to be perfect everytime to cause problems, get defenders running back towards their own goal and you'll get mistakes.

It's need to be a much higher tempo than Wolves currently play at though, opponents get chance to get man back goal side all the time at the moment. When that happens you end up with the ball being casually rolled out to a stationary wingback who's already being closed down by his opponent and expected to turn into Adama and force the issue. The system fails them at least as much as they fail themselves at the moment.
 

PuntsWolf

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As Andy says, it’s an extra option.

The FB can be useful without even touching the ball. They can overlap taking a defender away leaving space for the forward to cut inside or actually receive the pass on the overlap and again they’ve beaten a man without having to touch the ball or have any skill.

Trent has never been good for England as a WB. His success at Liverpool is crossing from deep normally unchallenged as the forward/midfielder have attracted the attention. (Just seen Mark has already said this).
 

MARKakaJIM

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As Andy says, it’s an extra option.

The FB can be useful without even touching the ball. They can overlap taking a defender away leaving space for the forward to cut inside or actually receive the pass on the overlap and again they’ve beaten a man without having to touch the ball or have any skill.

Trent has never been good for England as a WB. His success at Liverpool is crossing from deep normally unchallenged as the forward/midfielder have attracted the attention. (Just seen Mark has already said this).

You can have those same actions for your wingback in a 343.

If your inside forward drags a opposition fullback narrow then they've got their space for an overlap, Chelsea do this all the time with James and Alonso. Similarly if the fullback wants to stay wide and see off the threat of the wingback instead then your inside forward has the space inside them to attack and get at the centre halves.

You can do loads of different things with pretty much any position on the pitch. It's the way different players and positions interact with one another that's the real key. Doesn't really matter how good anyone is at anything in particular when they approach the game like it's netball and act like they've never even met one another before kick off.
 

Tony Towner

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Still stacks back to whether your players are capable of it. Semedo would not be a good RWB at Chelsea, RAN at the moment wouldn't be, that could change with good coaching
 

PuntsWolf

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You can have those same actions for your wingback in a 343.

If your inside forward drags a opposition fullback narrow then they've got their space for an overlap, Chelsea do this all the time with James and Alonso. Similarly if the fullback wants to stay wide and see off the threat of the wingback instead then your inside forward has the space inside them to attack and get at the centre halves.

You can do loads of different things with pretty much any position on the pitch. It's the way different players and positions interact with one another that's the real key. Doesn't really matter how good anyone is at anything in particular when they approach the game like it's netball and act like they've never even met one another before kick off.
Tbf it was a post I started hours ago but never got round to finishing it, but I agree with your point. Sadly we have immobile midfielders (or technically insufficient) and Forwards who operate the horseshoe. So play a 4231 where you can leave the midfielders and forwards where they are and have that extra guy in the middle.

But back on WBs, Alonso has no pace but has great delivery and can shoot. James can do anything. Semedo is more Kyle Walker so keep his role very basic rather than asking him to do anything on the ball and RAN clearly has good delivery or we wouldn’t put him on set pieces, he just never actually crosses it and over complicates things or just refuses. Some of that may be instruction though/lack of options.
 

AndyWolves

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I do with you mark that we don't play in a way conducive to wing back play. I also think the players we have in those positions are better fullbacks than wingbacks.

So basically, we have the wrong players in a system that doesn't work for us
 

Johnny75

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As Andy says, it’s an extra option.

The FB can be useful without even touching the ball. They can overlap taking a defender away leaving space for the forward to cut inside or actually receive the pass on the overlap and again they’ve beaten a man without having to touch the ball or have any skill.

Trent has never been good for England as a WB. His success at Liverpool is crossing from deep normally unchallenged as the forward/midfielder have attracted the attention. (Just seen Mark has already said this).
That only works if the opposition fear the full back.

They don't need to with Semedo as he has little end product. That takes away the threat. Doc was a threat at WB for the reason you outline and also that he could cut inside when the forward stays wide.

This freezes the opposition and gives the attackers time and space. Without that it's easy to defend.

Semedo is a defensive fullback at a time where nobody really plays them in England.
 

PuntsWolf

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I don’t think at any level people just completely disregard an opposition player regardless of who it is.

If they did then just take what they are giving and then he can just run round the outside and make a simple 5 yard pass for a tap in.
 

Deutsch Wolf

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One thing (of many) that frustrated me on Saturday - we now know what Chiquinho is all about. Can put in a superb ball from all kinds of angles. So when he gets it, the first instruction should be to load the box as heavily and quickly as we can. We don't.

Crap coaching.
 

Johnny75

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I don’t think at any level people just completely disregard an opposition player regardless of who it is.

If they did then just take what they are giving and then he can just run round the outside and make a simple 5 yard pass for a tap in.
But he doesn't as has been proven 100's of times.
 
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