UKIP and Similar Watch

[Deutsch Wolf]

There was no EU issue. There were a litany of failures by domestic governments of both hues that were conveniently blamed on the EU when it suited them, aided by their friends in the right wing press.

I don't really want to live in a country bent in the image of Paul Dacre, thanks.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

There was no EU issue. There were a litany of failures by domestic governments of both hues that were conveniently blamed on the EU when it suited them, aided by their friends in the right wing press.

I don't really want to live in a country bent in the image of Paul Dacre, thanks.

You know thats a bit simplistic. There was much much more substance than that fueled by a significant number of differences in policy between the UK and EU for 25 years. Domnt get me wrong. The press and right wing propaganda helped. But so did a succession of very self interested and weak politicians who put themselves before the country. I hope that we remember that come polling day.

 

[Langers]

Yes , completely agree. You know when you say something and you write something and they sound the same but the context is completely opposite? Thats this! Those three clusterfucks could not lead their way out of a paper bag IMHO but the groundswell of Tory voters seem to want them in charge! Let them have it and either chaos will ensue followed by swift change or they will pull a meterphorical rabbit out and deliver. Either way the country wins.

That's as good an idea as Wolves sacking Nuno and re-appointing Dean Saunders.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

That's as good an idea as Wolves sacking Nuno and re-appointing Dean Saunders.

Yeah.

But those three are more dangerous in the wings.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

You know thats a bit simplistic. There was much much more substance than that fueled by a significant number of differences in policy between the UK and EU for 25 years.

What specifically though, as we had our opt-outs concerning Schengen, currency, even freedom of movement to a degree if we'd bothered to implement it properly. None of that was ever going to arrive in the UK by stealth. I'm not really interested in whether we use imperial measures in shops! (And in any case, British road signs are still displayed in miles, the construction industry prefers to work in metric, etc)

If we were looking to join the EU now as a brand new member who'd never been part of the club before, and we managed to negotiate the deal and standing within the EU that we had pre-2016, whoever pulled it off would be hailed as a total genius.

On here at least, I don't think anyone has ever painted the EU as the land of milk and honey. There are significant questions around elements of how it operates and the endgame of relentless expansion has never quite been clear. But it's so obviously a better option than what we're heading for.

They've ruled out any form of customs union in the last day or so; unless they're playing with semantics and we'll end up with an arrangement that is basically the same thing but DEFINITELY NOT A UNION to appease a tiny fringe of idiots, that messes up the Irish border question. Again. That's an actual, bona fide, constitutional crisis - of our own making. This is the level of leadership we have. We don't know what we want and we wouldn't know how to go about it if we did.

We've voluntarily plunged ourselves into crisis, there is no making any sense of it. For the vast majority, it comes down to people wanting fewer foreigners here. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no economic case for it, there is no basis for trusting those in charge to leave us better off eventually.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

What specifically though, as we had our opt-outs concerning Schengen, currency, even freedom of movement to a degree if we'd bothered to implement it properly

And that has been pretty much my whole reasoning on the EU.We were either all in or all out. Its like a marriage with get out clauses. Imagine a partnership agreement that incudes "You can go shagging elsewhere on Fridays and tuesdays, you are not allowed to talk children on a thursday and if I dont agree with what your mother says you must come to my defence and agree with me". Preposterous. Unworkable. You may disagree but for over 20 years the get out/ opt outs that we as a country had were not enough to either appease us or to ensure that the EU direction changed sufficiently to make it palatable enough for the UK to be a member without the opt/outs. I completely respect those who wanted and still want to remain. But to me , and I will use the marriage analogy again, the UK was out shagging when it suited them and the EU allowed it. That type of open marriage is pretty much always doomed . Thats just how I feel about the EU and our membership now. It was always all in and suck it up or all out. The latter prevailed because we as a country/ nation/ Leaders didnt have the balls to give an oppotunity to say no in the 1990s( when a referendum would have been the right thing at the right time after maastrict and before Blair) or the bottle to go "all in" or the negotiating nous to ensure the direction the new EU was going was not so"federal states of Europe"( to coin a phrase). I understand exactly why people like you are so utterley pissed off with the current situation and rightly so. But you should not be either shocked by how we came to this or surprised by it, as the signs have been there and growing for 25 years plus.

For the vast majority, it comes down to people wanting fewer foreigners here

And finally, if in reality it has boiled down to " people in the uk dont want so many foreigners here" it would be a daming indictment of diversity policy and a multi cultural policy that has been being implemented since the 1990s across the board on the back of sex discrimination and race discrimination legislation and culminating in the equality legislation of 2010. If we really are at that point in this country and have not moved on significantly as a nation I await the return of the black and white minstrel show, love thy neighbour, rising damp and the re-introduction of page 3. Given that this week formula one and darts have both taken further steps to reduce the objectification of women, given that discriminatory and racially inflamitory langauge is completely unacceptable I am comfortable that as a nation we have moved on significantly and the basis for brexit is built on much more than one line " we dont want forriners ere"

 

[Tony Towner]

But soon after you divorce you realise your Mrs gave the best blowjob going and you were better off staying together.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

But soon after you divorce you realise your Mrs gave the best blowjob going and you were better off staying together.

The trouble is she was was also blowing half the men in the street and wouldnt let me touch another woman. So thats not going to work out long term is it?

Or even worse she would give blow jobs to others but not you and you were her husband! Perhaps I should have used another analogy lol!

 

[Trips]

And finally, if in reality it has boiled down to " people in the uk dont want so many foreigners here" it would be a daming indictment of diversity policy and a multi cultural policy that has been being implemented since the 1990s across the board on the back of sex discrimination and race discrimination legislation and culminating in the equality legislation of 2010. If we really are at that point in this country and have not moved on significantly as a nation I await the return of the black and white minstrel show, love thy neighbour, rising damp and the re-introduction of page 3. Given that this week formula one and darts have both taken further steps to reduce the objectification of women, given that discriminatory and racially inflamitory langauge is completely unacceptable I am comfortable that as a nation we have moved on significantly and the basis for brexit is built on much more than one line " we dont want forriners ere"

Immigration was a huge part of voting Brexit for a lot of people, don't kid yourself it wasn't. A hell of a lot of people didn't know what the EU does, or what being part of it meant, but got taken in by "taking back our borders" etc. There is still a huge problem with racism in this country. Have things moved on? Yes, but for a lot of people it did come down to immigration.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Immigration was a huge part of voting Brexit for a lot of people, don't kid yourself it wasn't. A hell of a lot of people didn't know what the EU does, or what being part of it meant, but got taken in by "taking back our borders" etc. There is still a huge problem with racism in this country. Have things moved on? Yes, but for a lot of people it did come down to immigration.

Agreed. There are generally three strands to Brexit. Taking back sovereignty. The EU is flawed. Controlling our borders. People on both sides of the fence tend to agree that the EU is flawed.

When it comes to issues of sovereignty their is barely a whisper about the givernment’s attempts to circumnavigate Parliament. When a woman of mixed heritage takes the government to court on this issue she is vilified and her ethnicity was most certainly a factor.

The issue with the single market is not the trade benefits, it is the free movement of people that is generally the line thrown back to say why we won’t be in the single market.

There are some people who have well thought out and reasoned beliefs that shaped their decision. In my opinion, those people are in the minority.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

it is the free movement of people that is generally the line thrown back to say why we won’t be in the single market

But to say that is racist in all cases is again far too generic IMHO.

To me I have a real issue with freedom of movment post 2004-7 because it actually only encouraged freedom of movement in one direction. In fact immigration to the UK from Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Czech republic and other former Eastern Bloc countries is pretty much one way traffic. Thats the problem. And that problem is because the ethos and idealogy of the EU is completely based on their " no borders" schenghen ethos forgetting that the last stop off point is a propserous Island ie The UK. If I could go and earn 3 or 4 times my salary somewhere else in the world ( I cannot ANYWHERE in the world for a like for like role I have checked) I would certainly have tried it as a younger man and definately done it as a single man. Take the argument even further and you cant buy property in India unless you are an Indian national ( I believe) so you dont look out there, a growing economy as a Brit to live and settle with free movement. It hasnt got it. There is no free movement in the US. Freedom of movement really works when the money side is close to parity for those working. The fact that , despite warnings, the EU went down this route has significantly influenced where we are today.

It is almost exactly the same that we have in this country with regard to the North South divide and London centric business.You dont leave London to take a job in Hull for the money in general terms do you?

 

[Trips]

To me I have a real issue with freedom of movment post 2004-7 because it actually only encouraged freedom of movement in one direction. In fact immigration to the UK from Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Czech republic and other former Eastern Bloc countries is pretty much one way traffic. Thats the problem.

Apologies if this takes us down a well-trodden path, but why is immigration a problem when EU migrants are net contributors to the UK?

 

[Deleted Cyber]

but why is immigration a problem when EU migrants are net contributors to the UK?

That is not the issue. Apologies to others but here is a quick example why Freedom of movement from countries with much lower average wages can cause issues.

In UK pretty much every public service requires a business to tender for contracts over I think 10K ( It may be more now ). Despite best value being introduced in 1990's by a labour govt many contracts still go to the cheapest tender.I will give a very simplistic hypothetical example of how it can and has gone wrong in my experience.

So say you are bidding for electrical work and have a requirements for 5 electricians that you then sub-contract out.

English electrician will work for £20 an hour as thats the average wage
Romanian Electrician will work for £15 an hour as thats 3 times his wage at home

Romanian Electrician has 4 mates from Romania that will all work for £15 an hour. All good electricians all do good work not better not worse than the UK electrician. I as the contractor look at the sub contract and the fact that I am getting the same standard of work for a 25% reduction in wage. This complies with best value and I award the contract to the Romanian quote for 6 months work . All 5 then rent a house in the UK together for £1000 a month for 6 months based on the length of the contract.The actual rental value of the house privately is only 800 a month but the 5 electricians dont care. They are all earning £1800 a month on their contract so they can afford the house, the extra cost of living and they are sending £300 a month home ( the romanian average wage) Everone is winning in that scenario. The contractor, the electrician, the family in romania , the landlord with a higher rent, the country showing a net positive contribution.

However the UK electrician now has to reduce his rate to £15 an hour to compete with the new romanian rate on contracts. Whilst his rented house shows a price increase of £200 a month on renewal as the Landlord knows there is a demand for housing in that area because there is work and an influx of migrant labour capable and competent to do the work at a lesser cost, and happy to do it as its still far more than they recived back in Romania. This means that the only loser is the UK based tradesman who is naturally a bit pissed off with this. UKIP leaflet drops through his door asking " has your business been adversely affected by the increase in migrant labour?" and he thinks TOO BLOODY RIGHT. So he votes to try and chnage that and secure a better rate for him and his family. And so the cycle is complete. Not once has the tradesman from the UK shown any racists attitudes. Its just a system that has been set up , poorly thought out and implemented and it adversely effects him.

This is just a very very simplistic example but it is exactly why freedom of movement only works if the average pay between the countries having such freedoms is relatively close. Outside of that and the above example applies.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

That's free market economics though.

Unless we're ending that as well as leaving the EU...

 

[Tredman]

True, but it shouldn't be ignored, despite the prevalence not being that high. If the justification were as Cyber explains then its understandable, however, for most people that is not the reason - its just a nasty undercurrent of xenophobia/.

 

[Trips]

There is nothing to stop other British electrical firms doing that though cyber. It's a competitive marketplace and people are free to do this. Otherwise we are approaching a situation where companies (i.e. British electricians in your example) are fixing prices between themselves. Surely this shouldn't be encouraged.

 

[Tredman]

There is nothing to stop other British electrical firms doing that though cyber. It's a competitive marketplace and people are free to do this. Otherwise we are approaching a situation where companies (i.e. British electricians in your example) are fixing prices between themselves. Surely this shouldn't be encouraged.

But if a competitive market is left unchecked with the only key driver being price then you end up with Carillion etc.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

That's free market economics though.

Unless we're ending that as well as leaving the EU...

In this country there are already a number of jobs that offer " London weighting" because it is recognised that the differing standards cause issues. Again, this is not a new thing. Twas often thus. Human beings do things because they can. That is where universal basic income could have helped with a gap as only UK citizens would have qualified- another debate and one that will never happen in my lifetime I know.

Bread costs the same in London and in Hull pretty much. Average House price in Hull 120k average wage 24k. Average house price London 490K average wage 34k. So no-one buys a house in London- hence the high rent prices. More job availability in London than Hull equals better prospects. However cheap housing in Hull allows for an increase in migration to the area. Its no coincidence these port type towns saw a big increase in UKIP support after 2004 when they also saw big increases in migration from the former eastern bloc. In areas where jobs were already hard to come by , hard working low wage former eastern bloc workers , used to tough conditions and low pay made mincemeat of workers in construction and farming from the UK and happily worked in poorer conditions than UK workers. See Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Yarmouth, Hull, Kent. London has always attracted immigration and it was nothing new. To a number of other areas the culture change was too much too fast and coupled with a recession. To me that is a wedge caused by a policy not by an attititiude based on race. For years Fenland had seasonal migrant workers who were welcomed . Now in a number of cases A8 country workers are seen as a threat. Such a shame. The blame can be laid squarely on the EU expansion from 2004 backed by freedom of movement.

Migrant poulation of Hull is under 10% even though its quadrupled this century. Migrant poulation of London 37% but was always high.

But if a competitive market is left unchecked with the only key driver being price then you end up with Carillion etc.

Again correct. Also look at stagecoach and their East Coast mainline franchise for what happens when you get your sums wrong.

I do not know what the answer is, but to me Freedom of movement in its current form is a problem.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

There is nothing to stop other British electrical firms doing that though cyber. It's a competitive marketplace and people are free to do this. Otherwise we are approaching a situation where companies (i.e. British electricians in your example) are fixing prices between themselves. Surely this shouldn't be encouraged.

But you must have an even standpoint. Thats what Trump is banging on about with US businesses. His import taxes are seeking to ensure that USA industries are competitive with their much cheaper competitiors from abroad by taxing them. He doesnt have freedom of movement to worry about. Currently USA economy is doing ok as his " look after my own" policies gain support. With freedom of movement we have brought the cheaper labour costs that could have been compensated by increased import taxes into the country nulyfying them and making it advantageous to be a foriegn migrant worker in the UK from certain countries. Again, we are not having this conversation with regard to Danish, Swedish or Luxumbourg citizens who see us as a step down economically and financially and whose average wage is significantly higher.I recently retiurned from iceland where fish and chips is about £15 a pop and a beer can be up to a tenner! But their average wage is about 10k higher than here so it compensates. There I found British tour guides, divers etc who are making 10k a year more over there , but they are doing it temporarily to earn a fast buck ( much the same as my electrician example) . Iceland is about 100k square km and England is 130k sq km. there are 300,000 people in Iceland and in England there are 54 million! Thats a helluva difference! No reral property issues on Iceland! If you want a place you can find one! Here? 150k shortfall on houses year on. So many factors impacting on us here and all of them bloody obvious for so long its amazing that people are so shocked that we are where we are.

 

[visage]

The idea that immigration drives down wages has been roundly debunked.