• Welcome, guest!

    This is a forum devoted to discussion of Wolverhampton Wanderers.
    Why not sign up and contribute? Registered members get a fully ad-free experience!

Ukraine

WolfMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2021
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
813
The whole thing you posted a link to. Both of the authors have done work for RT which makes me immediately suspicious of anything they write.
Wasn't sure if you meant the bit about Zelensky giving the Right Sector leader the Hero Of Ukraine award.

That's confirmed here:


As for the rest of it, there's quite a lot of information in there. Think it'd be hard to find a single source that corroborates all of it. There's plenty of links included in the article itself to "reliable" news organisations such as Reuters etc. Is there a specific claim in it that you think is untrue?

What Putin is doing is absolutely horrendous and unforgivable. All I was trying to say is that the situation is complex and I don't trust our leaders not royally fuck it up even more. Our own country is pretty fucking dysfunctional thanks to them.
The hubris of them thinking they can effectively intervene in a foreign war they don't understand - and not make it many times worse, is depressing but predictable, based on what's happened in the past.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if in 15-20 years, the same leaders are telling us we need to go to war to defeat the Nazis in Ukraine, the fact we helped arm them in the first place won't matter. The same thing happened in Afghanistan with the Taliban. In my lifetime, the interventions we've made for what were portrayed to to be morally justifiable reasons, have led to massively more death, destruction and instability in the world, not less. We caused a quarter of a million civilians deaths in Iraq pursuing an illegal war built on total lies.

It's not just our leaders competence I've got no faith in, I don't trust their motivations either. Their actions in cosying up to Saudia Arabia, a dictatorship that's caused the deaths of a quarter of a million people in the Yemen and still crucifies people, tells me more about their true feelings about democracy and freedom than their public pronouncements ever will. I just don't buy their moralising bullshit for one second.

Everything we're doing now, I only think it'll end up prolonging the bloodshed and destruction, and potentially lead to us all getting vaporised in a nuclear apocalypse. Appreciate I'm probably in a minority though, at least Pogo the racist agrees with me 🥹
 

AndyWolves

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
12,052
Reaction score
3,449
Wasn't sure if you meant the bit about Zelensky giving the Right Sector leader the Hero Of Ukraine award.

That's confirmed here:


As for the rest of it, there's quite a lot of information in there. Think it'd be hard to find a single source that corroborates all of it. There's plenty of links included in the article itself to "reliable" news organisations such as Reuters etc. Is there a specific claim in it that you think is untrue?

What Putin is doing is absolutely horrendous and unforgivable. All I was trying to say is that the situation is complex and I don't trust our leaders not royally fuck it up even more. Our own country is pretty fucking dysfunctional thanks to them.
The hubris of them thinking they can effectively intervene in a foreign war they don't understand - and not make it many times worse, is depressing but predictable, based on what's happened in the past.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if in 15-20 years, the same leaders are telling us we need to go to war to defeat the Nazis in Ukraine, the fact we helped arm them in the first place won't matter. The same thing happened in Afghanistan with the Taliban. In my lifetime, the interventions we've made for what were portrayed to to be morally justifiable reasons, have led to massively more death, destruction and instability in the world, not less. We caused a quarter of a million civilians deaths in Iraq pursuing an illegal war built on total lies.

It's not just our leaders competence I've got no faith in, I don't trust their motivations either. Their actions in cosying up to Saudia Arabia, a dictatorship that's caused the deaths of a quarter of a million people in the Yemen and still crucifies people, tells me more about their true feelings about democracy and freedom than their public pronouncements ever will. I just don't buy their moralising bullshit for one second.

Everything we're doing now, I only think it'll end up prolonging the bloodshed and destruction, and potentially lead to us all getting vaporised in a nuclear apocalypse. Appreciate I'm probably in a minority though, at least Pogo the racist agrees with me 🥹
I think the problem with this kind of stuff is that there is rarely a straight forward answer and I guess often we end up trying to choose the least worst option. Although in the examples you provided we undoubtedly made things a lot worse for no good reason.

I think in this case Russian aggression is a bigger risk than arming some far right groups. I'd rather have to deal with pockets of extremists than Russia annexing Ukraine and then having a pop at some NATO countries.

Just out of interest, what would you do?
 

WolfMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2021
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
813
I think the problem with this kind of stuff is that there is rarely a straight forward answer and I guess often we end up trying to choose the least worst option. Although in the examples you provided we undoubtedly made things a lot worse for no good reason.

I think in this case Russian aggression is a bigger risk than arming some far right groups. I'd rather have to deal with pockets of extremists than Russia annexing Ukraine and then having a pop at some NATO countries.

Just out of interest, what would you do?

Personally I don't believe Russia are a threat to the west militarily, apart from their nuclear weapons. I just want us to use our military for its stated purpose of defence. I'd pretty much just do what we are doing now, I just wouldn't be sending weapons or considering no fly zones. So not too out there I don't think.
 

AndyWolves

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
12,052
Reaction score
3,449
Personally I don't believe Russia are a threat to the west militarily, apart from their nuclear weapons. I just want us to use our military for its stated purpose of defence. I'd pretty much just do what we are doing now, I just wouldn't be sending weapons or considering no fly zones. So not too out there I don't think.
Have a read of this, I'm not so sure that I don't consider Russia a threat

 

WolfMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2021
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
813
Have a read of this, I'm not so sure that I don't consider Russia a threat

I've had a quick look, I'll have a more in depth look later. What I would say though is that look how the Russian army is performing in Ukraine, it's really struggling to achieve its objectives. Even if they manage to capture the whole of Ukraine, they won't be able to hold onto it. NATO's combined military strength massively outweighs Russia's. I just don't see where the military threat comes from, other than nuclear.

The only credible threat to us from them, imo, comes from things like cyber attacks and them attempting to subvert our democracy, as we've seen with the referendum and all these questionable political donations etc that are coming to light now , that's the real danger I think.
 

sycophantia

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 2, 2012
Messages
6,695
Reaction score
2,057
I've had a quick look, I'll have a more in depth look later. What I would say though is that look how the Russian army is performing in Ukraine, it's really struggling to achieve its objectives. Even if they manage to capture the whole of Ukraine, they won't be able to hold onto it. NATO's combined military strength massively outweighs Russia's. I just don't see where the military threat comes from, other than nuclear.

The only credible threat to us from them, imo, comes from things like cyber attacks and them attempting to subvert our democracy, as we've seen with the referendum and all these questionable political donations etc that are coming to light now , that's the real danger I think.
Well all of those attacks you mention are important. Militarily the West has allowed Russia to get away with attacks on other countries such as Ukraine (Crimea) and Syria, virtually no opposition to those politically which imv has encouraged Putin to think the West is weak and now he's trying his arm in further Ukraine, it appears he's bitten of more than he can chew with the Ukranians. However should he continue his march to the Polish border, laying waste to whole cities, does NATO just accept it?
 

WolfMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2021
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
813
Well all of those attacks you mention are important. Militarily the West has allowed Russia to get away with attacks on other countries such as Ukraine (Crimea) and Syria, virtually no opposition to those politically which imv has encouraged Putin to think the West is weak and now he's trying his arm in further Ukraine, it appears he's bitten of more than he can chew with the Ukranians. However should he continue his march to the Polish border, laying waste to whole cities, does NATO just accept it?
No I totally agree they're massively important.

Crimea and Syria are another two complex situations that I think we were better off staying out of. Obviously the Assad regime is terrible, I remember Hilary Benn giving a speech in parliament advocating us getting involved militarily in Syria, it was a good speech and got roundly praised. It turned out the main players in the side against Assad consisted of groups like Islamic State and Al Qaeda, so I'm glad we didn't. It's the same sort of thing your hearing now from politicians advocating us getting involved in Ukraine.

When you say, militarily the west has allowed Russia to get away with attacks on other countries, it's like the west should act as the worlds police man. It's just my opinion that it shouldn't, and that when it does, it ends up causing more problems than it solves. I don't know of an intervention that the west has made since WW2 that's ended successfully, do you? All the way from Vietnam to Iraq, it's been disaster after disaster. I only think we should get involved in wars where our actual sovereignty is under threat. If Russia does start to rampage east through Europe, then that's a totally different thing and it would undoubtedly be WW3. The fact they're struggling to take Ukraine would suggest that's just not going to happen, even if they wanted it to.

Answer me these few questions, was our attack on Iraq justified? If it wasn't, should "the east" ie Russia and China have allowed us get away with it? Should they have supplied the Iraqis with weapons and implemented a no fly zone over the skies of Iraq? If they would have done these things, would it have led to a more peaceful, stable world with less death and suffering? Shouldn't that be the ultimate goal of any action we take?
 

Johnny75

Dave Edwards / Steve Corica / Seyi / Darren Fergu
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
29,535
Reaction score
4,404
Russia has already rampaged west through parts of Europe.

Yugoslav civil war was a necessary intervention as was Kuwait.
 

WolfMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2021
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
813
Fucks sake, I've woken Pogo up. Has anyone else ever received a private message from him? I had one last night, he wanted me to know he wasn't a racist. I told him it'd be better to join in the discussion rather than posting emojis from the sidelines, but he's obviously not listened to the advice!

I'll leave it there now, I've said what my opinion is, I don't want to ruin the thread for anyone else. TT I don't go down Twitter wormholes generally, I'm not on Twitter. I've been off work for a few days and been reading loads of articles from loads of different news websites on the whole situation to try and better understand it. To be honest it's not been the best for my mental health, but that's just from the perspective of worrying about how dangerous it all is. I'm back at work now, so I really should actually do some!
 

Johnny75

Dave Edwards / Steve Corica / Seyi / Darren Fergu
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
29,535
Reaction score
4,404
What's the answer then, we intervene in Ukraine and risk WW3?
We are already by giving them weapons and aid.

I'm surprised the UN haven't voted to boot Russia out of the chair. It's not a coincidence they have the chair right now.

If they are booted from the UN chair and have their veto removed it will be interesting to see what decisions are made in condemnation of the invasion and possible peacekeepers on the ground.

Putin would have to admit defeat at that point.
 

jlo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
2,106
Reaction score
300
We are already by giving them weapons and aid.

I'm surprised the UN haven't voted to boot Russia out of the chair. It's not a coincidence they have the chair right now.

If they are booted from the UN chair and have their veto removed it will be interesting to see what decisions are made in condemnation of the invasion and possible peacekeepers on the ground.

Putin would have to admit defeat at that point.
The UN would just go down the League of Nations route, not to say I don't agree with you morally.
 

Keef

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
3,055
Reaction score
490
If anyone is interested, after hearing nothing off my mate and his mrs for nearly a week, he’s popped up on Facebook said the pair of them are ok, they’ve sort of been stood down off defence of Kyev, but if a certain siren is heard they’ve got to kit up and go ( all the stuffs in the flat, uniform, body armour, guns!)
Lots of air raid sirens, no bombs/missiles as yet, 35 hr curfew, only full time troops/emergency services allowed on the streets.
 

AndyWolves

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
12,052
Reaction score
3,449
Russia have proven they're no match for NATO without nukes, and they've pissed off their major customers of oil & gas.

China must be absolutely delighted at this turn of events.
 

sycophantia

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 2, 2012
Messages
6,695
Reaction score
2,057
This is a very balanced article on the far right militias in Ukraine.

It is, but doesnt tell us anything we didn't already know.
It's been mentioned before that atm they're a necessary evil but will need bringing to heel after the conflict is over. It won't be easy and I fear Ukraine has a lot of turmoil to overcome for many years.
We still need to help them kick Putin out in the short term.
 

WolfMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2021
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
813
It is, but doesnt tell us anything we didn't already know.
It's been mentioned before that atm they're a necessary evil but will need bringing to heel after the conflict is over. It won't be easy and I fear Ukraine has a lot of turmoil to overcome for many years.
We still need to help them kick Putin out in the short term.
It expanded on what I already knew to be fair. Agree this isn't going to be a short term thing is it. I'm still concerned about us arming Nazis, but as you say - maybe it is a necessary evil at this stage. Just hope it doesn't come back to bite us down the line.
 
Top