VAR Discussion

[Deutsch Wolf]

This has been taking over the match discussions lately and we're going to have to deal with it every week in the coming season...so let's discuss it properly.

These seem to be the main bones of contention, and my thoughts on them:

- Communication inside the ground is poor and the process takes too long: No arguments from me on this one. When we went to Wembley, there were two separate checks and we had no idea what was going on. Watching games on TV where VAR is involved, something fairly straightforward like an offside still takes an age, we had the incident in the Juve vs Ajax CL game where they spent ages checking if the ball had gone out for a throw in the build up. No problem with them looking but if you can't tell after 2-3 replays, you're never going to tell. Don't spend five minutes looking at the same thing, the pictures aren't going to change. Hopefully this improves as time goes on.

- It doesn't guarantee the correct decision: The most recent example being the penalty that Switzerland somehow got vs Portugal on VAR. But this is just operator error. We can't do anything about that other than get better officials who know what they're doing.

- It will kill goal celebrations: I absolutely do not buy this argument at all. Who on earth is going to watch the ball hit the back of the net for their team and not react? It just won't happen. It hasn't happened in Champions League games this year or in any of the other domestic leagues where it's used. I have used the parallels with rugby and cricket which apparently are "not the same" but I don't really see how? Nothing about that argument makes sense to me.

- Some of the decisions are too marginal: Again, can't go with this. Offsides are line decisions, just as much as whether a shot goes in or not. 0.01 yards offside or 10 yards offside, the fact remains, you're offside. This is by far the most difficult decision to get right - especially with how quick the game is these days - and any help we can give to officials should be welcomed. People are going to have to get used to the "pass through -> no flag -> goal -> check and disallowed" scenario isn't an "error" and "margin" doesn't come into it. The flag didn't go up because the linesman is told in that situation not to flag (a high chance that if there is no VAR, Lingard gets flagged offside vs the Netherlands on Thursday and no more gets said about it). There's no error to overturn because no decision has been made. It's a simple matter of fact, offside or not offside.

- We like controversy and talking points: Personally I don't want my team conceding bullshit goals that shouldn't exist and not getting clear penalties that should be given. Let's say the race for Europe had gone down to goal difference. Mané's second goal at Anfield bumps us down to 8th. Offside. Great stuff. Would we be talking about it now? Yep. Wouldn't be a very cheery conversation though. I don't want teams being impacted because a third party (the referee and/or linesmen) fuck up, they can't do anything about that. Go down because your signings were awful, you couldn't score goals, you had a leper in goal, you are Neil Warnock, you could have fixed all of that (well, Colin can't help being Colin I suppose). You can't make allowances for being robbed.

The rest seems to revolve around some kind of nebulous traditionalism which is daft as the game is always evolving. Three points for a win, goal difference rather than goal average, playoffs, backpass rules, offside rules, three/five/seven subs on the bench, banning tackling from behind and so on and so on...these have all changed the scope of the game over the last few decades. Mostly for the better, if not all for the better. You aren't going to stop watching football because of VAR. And no-one gets anywhere wishing the world could be exactly as it was when they were 21. Saying "I don't like it" and getting in a strop isn't the answer either.

Thoughts welcome.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I like var. 99% correct decisions 1% numpty operators as you say, they can soon be upgraded. The more its used the more efficient it seems to become. I would have been howling had Switzerland's centre forward scored after fouling our defender. So no issues with that being chalked off.

With var there will be less holding, diving, cheating , more correct decisions. What's not to like?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Also, here's a clincher for all of us; bet you Bournemouth don't get anywhere near as many penalties next season...

 

[Kenny]

Also, here's a clincher for all of us; bet you Bournemouth don't get anywhere near as many penalties next season...

SOLD.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Also, here's a clincher for all of us; bet you Bournemouth don't get anywhere near as many penalties next season...

Yep. One of the reasons I think they'll struggle.

Bet some defenders get pulled up for shirt pulling too.

Bet that some of the countries lead divers would get a few yellows and bans too.

 

[pavlosmacwolf]

Frankly for me, var is here and that's that. What we can do with our comments is help to refine it so that it becomes more acceptable for the fans in the ground, bollocks to the TV audience which I am one, we get so many replays from so many angles how is that normal football viewing?

 

[Tredman]

It's the first one for me. Fans pay a lot of money to go and watch games and to be expected to stand around for 5 minutes having no idea what is going on (as with the Lindelof sending off against Utd) is just shit. The fans in the ground should come first, they need to make it work there first.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

It's the first one for me. Fans pay a lot of money to go and watch games and to be expected to stand around for 5 minutes having no idea what is going on (as with the Lindelof sending off against Utd) is just shit. The fans in the ground should come first, they need to make it work there first.

Now I fundamentally disagree with the Lindelöf incident, where was the error there? You can make the argument that it's not a red card, sure, but it fits plenty of the criteria that say it is - and the ref sent him off in real time. That needs to be eradicated. Plus in our FA Cup games, the ref didn't have the opportunity to review his own decision. It was all made remotely. In that scenario he should not be overruled.

I believe we will get replays on the screens next season?

 

[Tredman]

Now I fundamentally disagree with the Lindelöf incident, where was the error there? You can make the argument that it's not a red card, sure, but it fits plenty of the criteria that say it is - and the ref sent him off in real time. That needs to be eradicated. Plus in our FA Cup games, the ref didn't have the opportunity to review his own decision. It was all made remotely. In that scenario he should not be overruled.

I believe we will get replays on the screens next season?

I hope so, regardless of the decision my problem is we literally had no idea what was going on. They should mike up the VAR process and play it on the PA system.

No overly bothered about the on field ref being involved, most of them are shit anyway and have big egos so might not want to overturn themselves.

 

[Tony Towner]

I hate it because it takes spontaneity out of the game. I wasn't bothered about the England game yesterday so was meh about the goal being ruled out on an emotional level, but the scoring of a goal, the celebrations, then the hand to the ear for 2 minutes, then the running off to look at a screen for another minute is mechanical and soulless.

As I said yesterday I don't care whether it gets the correct result in the end that's not what it's about for me. Of course I want referees to make the correct decisions but not at this price. I know that means errors will happen and people will trot out the pompous 'well you can't ever moan about a refereeing decision again' line, but that's how I feel.

I've seen a lot of 'we've all celebrated a goal to find out it's offside', but this is false equivalency, when that happens it's a couple of seconds, this can be a good minute before the players know there is a VAR review let alone the fans. It's bollocks and nobody will convince me otherwise and much as I will celebrate the first goal chalked off against us this coming season or the first penalty given I'll still say it's bollocks.

What I would be in favour of is when GPS can be used for offsides so that the time gap is the same as goal line technology. I have no idea how close that is to a reality though.

Finally if VAR was in place last season, Colin would have stayed up.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I've seen a lot of 'we've all celebrated a goal to find out it's offside', but this is false equivalency, when that happens it's a couple of seconds, this can be a good minute before the players know there is a VAR review let alone the fans. It's bollocks and nobody will convince me otherwise and much as I will celebrate the first goal chalked off against us this coming season or the first penalty given I'll still say it's bollocks.

I watch a lot of German football and they have had VAR for two years. I watched the relegation playoff between Union Berlin and Stuttgart, the latter had a goal disallowed through VAR. Let me tell you that the away end went fucking ballistic when it went in.

Finally if VAR was in place last season, Colin would have stayed up.

Well, they probably wouldn't have beaten us at home as their first goal would have been disallowed. At least two points off there, maybe three. They also beat Brighton at home and their last minute winner was offside.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I hope so, regardless of the decision my problem is we literally had no idea what was going on. They should mike up the VAR process and play it on the PA system.

No overly bothered about the on field ref being involved, most of them are shit anyway and have big egos so might not want to overturn themselves.

I think the involvement of the on field ref is the biggest problem with the football version of VAR so far, that's what slow it down more than anything else, why wait for him to stand around having a little chat then wander over to the sideline, look at a few replays and then decide something wasn't right? If it's a pure black/white situation like offside in a goal build up or something then the VAR guy with his cameras and replays could see almost instantly and just tell the ref it needs to be disallowed, throw it up on the screens, have linesman indicate offside and call it back for the freekick. Anything where there is no interpretation involved could be decided in a fraction of the time the current process takes by eliminating the engagement of the on pitch referee, it serves no purpose doing it that way that protecting some old fashioned illusion of him having sole control.

For incidents like Lindelof, as it happened was really badly communicated and just had people arguing pro/anti depending on their view of the initial foul rather than overturning a clear mistake, I think that sort of situation would be better resolved if you had the VAR assistant available on request so he could whistle for the foul and rather than make a snap decision over red/yellow card he can have another look and hopefully make the right call rather than rely on the VAR to overrule any potential mistake.

 

[Tony Towner]

I watch a lot of German football and they have had VAR for two years. I watched the relegation playoff between Union Berlin and Stuttgart, the latter had a goal disallowed through VAR. Let me tell you that the away end went fucking ballistic when it went in.



Well, they probably wouldn't have beaten us at home as their first goal would have been disallowed. At least two points off there, maybe three.

I'm not suggesting it'll kill celebrations, I'm saying it's not the same as celebrating and then seeing the flag has gone up. One starts and then stops after a couple of seconds followed by swearing. The other in your example I would imagine saw the celebration go on for a minute or so, probably to the end of its natural conclusion and then the goal was ruled out. That's just not for me.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The other in your example I would imagine saw the celebration go on for a minute or so, probably to the end of its natural conclusion and then the goal was ruled out. That's just not for me.

I know for a fact that you'll cheer like mad if Stuart Broad pins David Warner lbw in the Ashes (assuming they aren't 500/2 at the time or something). If Warner reviews it, it's going to take how long for the decision to come through? And it could be overturned. Doesn't spoil your enjoyment of the game though, does it? And I think we can both agree that cricket is much the better for appalling decisions being as good as eradicated at international level.

And "pace of the game" regarding cricket/football doesn't come into it, the ball is dead, whether it's hit the back of the net or the umpire has put his finger up. Play has stopped in both situations.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think that sort of situation would be better resolved if you had the VAR assistant available on request so he could whistle for the foul and rather than make a snap decision over red/yellow card he can have another look and hopefully make the right call rather than rely on the VAR to overrule any potential mistake.

I quite like this. Blow for the foul (because it was obviously a free kick) then on the mic "Hi Kevin, I'd like us to have a look at that tackle, red or yellow". And all broadcast over the Tannoy (TM).

 

[Tony Towner]

I know for a fact that you'll cheer like mad if Stuart Broad pins David Warner lbw in the Ashes (assuming they aren't 500/2 at the time or something). If Warner reviews it, it's going to take how long for the decision to come through? And it could be overturned. Doesn't spoil your enjoyment of the game though, does it?

And "pace of the game" regarding cricket/football doesn't come into it, the ball is dead, whether it's hit the back of the net or the umpire has put his finger up. Play has stopped in both situations.

Of course I would, but there are a few differences:

A batting team review is pretty instantaneous, particularly if he thinks he's hit it. Most don't wander up the other end and chat to their partner.

Generalising, given the number of wickets in an innings they aren't as individually important as a goal.

By and large the celebration is a cheer and a punch of the air rather than a football mental.

Using another sport as an example. When the Eagles won the Superbowl last year I think I said on here that two of the touchdowns going to booth review took something away from those moments for me. Obviously the win was as special, but I felt a bit robbed of a couple of moments of euphoria at the time.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I quite like this. Blow for the foul (because it was obviously a free kick) then on the mic "Hi Kevin, I'd like us to have a look at that tackle, red or yellow". And all broadcast over the Tannoy (TM).

Also gives opportunity to not make a complete cock up when it's someone like Grealish on the receiving end, might look bad at first glance only to find there's actually fuck all in it and then you get to book the prick for diving rather than embarrass yourself with an instinctive snap decision.

 

[lemonjelly]

Good idea. Taking your 5 "headlines

- Communication inside the ground is poor and the process takes too long: this is the most urgent issue needing to be addressed in the short term. It's kinda clear even the refs aren't sure what's going on. Have refs been to places where VAY operates, and learned from their experiences? Ref's appear unsure, players don't know what's going on, fans in stands have no idea at all, and viewers only know because commentators are surmising that's what's going on.

- It doesn't guarantee the correct decision: Can't disagree with your assessment here. These are matters of fact issues, not opinions.

- It will kill goal celebrations: I also don't agree with this argument. Whole stands erupt in anticipation all the time. One could argue it will stretch out goal celebrations - indeed, you'll have 2. The one in real time, and another when the ref confirms the goal.

- Some of the decisions are too marginal: The decisions to be made are yes/no decisions.

- We like controversy and talking points: And we'll find others once VAR is resolved, as those issues will have evidence confirming one way or the other.

 

[Carrotdude]

I said this after the city goal got chalked off in the champions league qf but VAR can still lead to an amazing feeling for the team that gets the benefit of it. Yeah sure City fans went mad thinking they’d won it and that got taken away but then spurs fans went from complete despair to utter elation so it works both ways.

I like VAR in principle but it just needs the process speeding up and better communication within the ground with whats going on

 

[Tony Towner]

I don't agree 100% with this particularly the middle part about human error being something to embrace, but the top 1/3 of this sums up my thoughts

https://www.football365.com/news/on-the-scourge-of-var-football-should-be-poetry-not-mathematics