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West Ham 1-0 Wolves: Verdict Thread

Del Woppio

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I just don't get why he didn't give the initial plan more than three games. It was such a small sample to bin it off from, and I think we'd have been in as good or better a place by now. Even if a bit worse it would've been a lot of fun, entertaining and had a higher ceiling. I hate attritional football
 

Deutsch Wolf

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I just don't get why he didn't give the initial plan more than three games. It was such a small sample to bin it off from, and I think we'd have been in as good or better a place by now. Even if a bit worse it would've been a lot of fun, entertaining and had a higher ceiling. I hate attritional football
I get it. His CV meant he was as much a Premier League manager by right as I am a Michelin starred chef, and we had 0 goals and 0 points.

We're just not much fun to watch and it's not a recent thing. As I said yesterday - 9 out of our last 16 league games, we've had either 1 or 2 shots on target. Nearly half a season that.

I'll happily have us 1-0ing our way to the Europa League but a) it's not for everyone, b) please don't try to kid me that we're entertaining and c) we aren't even doing that lately.
 

Tony Towner

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I don't really care what other fans think, but I can't imagine many neutrals enjoy watching us play. Even in most games we've won it's efficient rather than entertaining. When we employed Bruno I thought it would be a car crash, way too open and teams carving us open based on his approach at Benfica and the players he had here, coupled with lack of confidence in Jeff and co buying him the players he needed. It's to his credit that he very quickly recognised that would very likely be the case early on and adjusted accordingly.

As we all know we started the season playing attacking football and lost the lot, he could have continued like that and worked on luck balancing itself out, but we were wasteful rather than victims to bad luck and/or fantastic goalkeeping. We don't have goalscorers, that was clear then and is even more so now. Trincao and Adama missing gilt edge chances is just who they are and this is an inferior version of Raul. I don't blame him changing things, another couple of defeats and he may well have been binned.

Games like Sunday are frustrating for all the reasons discussed on the thread, but I have more tolerance for that than the ones where we take a goal lead and go into our shells. Against Leeds and Arsenal we played for a 1-0 pretty much from the moment we scored. In the latter we did have a couple of additional chances, but they were very much against the run of play. We were hanging on against both Everton and Newcastle at the end in games we'd dominated because of that mentality, they could easily have gone the other way if it weren't for Sa/goal frame.

That's what needs fixing, we aren't going to be a freescoring team in any formation, but he's got to allow the more attacking players to play for 90 mins and take risks around the opposition box, that includes movement which could end up offside, but the static way we approach those situations now means we aren't going to break sides down.

Finally, we have already and will continue to concede more goals - 1 league clean sheet in 6. Teams have worked a way of getting at us by playing balls inside the wing backs and getting nimble players at the centre halves. We look susceptible to movement, we aren't going to win as many games 1-0 from here in so need to score more
 
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PuntsWolf

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I keep going back to it, but I don’t know what the current plan is. You may or may not have liked Nuno’s style of football at any point of his tenure, but you knew what the plan was. And at the end of the day majority of fans don’t care as long as your winning, case in point being this season and last season.

Nothing had really changed for Nuno we just weren’t executing. And we’ve never been a free flowing attacking force this season but people have been happy to say how good it is because outside the first 3 games the form had been very good.

If our plan is cut backs then we actually need players to attempt to beat a man (and actually have people in the box), if it’s crosses then we need more in the box and if it’s intricate passing then it actually needs to be intricate rather than random flicks hoping for the best.
 

MARKakaJIM

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No rewriting history on this side, my friend.

We were indeed crap last season but there were multiple mitigating factors as we all know.


That >>>>> Anything Lage has served up, and it's not even close.

Honestly I don't see much difference in structure there at all, arguably the biggest difference is Doherty!

1st goal is nothing we don't still see now, ball worked wide, minimal presence in the box, cross that should be dealt with. It's only Doherty being on the move, in contrast to flat footed Jimenez, that means Spurs sloppy defending gets punished.

2nd goal again isn't a situation we never see anymore, difference being that I've rarely seen Semedo just drive it into an area first time, he'd probably take a touch turn back and have it at Sa's feet before you can mutter FFS. Couple that with Jota's desire to attack the goal, something no-one has really replaced, and you've got a goal there that we wouldn't even contemplate now despite the build up still being relatively commonplace.

3rd goal I think shows the issues we've seen for years quite well, front three isolated from everyone else but given space to play in they'll cause problems. They play it early and quickly giving Spurs no time to get in and organized, that's still very much what they need to do now to cause problems but they seem to get those decisions wrong too often, making bad decisions when to force the issue or when to play safe.
 

The Bear

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Just shows we are very efficient and hard to beat. Most games we score first we win.
Alternatively, most games we concede first we lose.

We had one of the best comeback stats in the league under Nuno, so that has gone now.
 

MARKakaJIM

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Alternatively, most games we concede first we lose.

We had one of the best comeback stats in the league under Nuno, so that has gone now.

Needed it under Nuno without the amount of times they conceded first though, it's a record no-one should really want because it shows you've fucked up first to put you in that position.
 

PuntsWolf

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Honestly I don't see much difference in structure there at all, arguably the biggest difference is Doherty!

1st goal is nothing we don't still see now, ball worked wide, minimal presence in the box, cross that should be dealt with. It's only Doherty being on the move, in contrast to flat footed Jimenez, that means Spurs sloppy defending gets punished.

2nd goal again isn't a situation we never see anymore, difference being that I've rarely seen Semedo just drive it into an area first time, he'd probably take a touch turn back and have it at Sa's feet before you can mutter FFS. Couple that with Jota's desire to attack the goal, something no-one has really replaced, and you've got a goal there that we wouldn't even contemplate now despite the build up still being relatively commonplace.

3rd goal I think shows the issues we've seen for years quite well, front three isolated from everyone else but given space to play in they'll cause problems. They play it early and quickly giving Spurs no time to get in and organized, that's still very much what they need to do now to cause problems but they seem to get those decisions wrong too often, making bad decisions when to force the issue or when to play safe.
1st Goal RAN would have beat his man and refused the cross. Even if he did Raul would be on the edge of the area and the Keeper would just claim it.

2nd Semedo if either cuts back and plays it back as you say or tries a cut back into someone shins or easily cleared. No one would have been attacking the posts like Jota did and even if they were we wouldn’t cross it

3rd goal no one can do what Jota did except Neto. And even if we did do it it would have been laid back to a WB or Neves and allowed the defense to reset.
 

MARKakaJIM

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1st Goal RAN would have beat his man and refused the cross. Even if he did Raul would be on the edge of the area and the Keeper would just claim it.

2nd Semedo if either cuts back and plays it back as you say or tries a cut back into someone shins or easily cleared. No one would have been attacking the posts like Jota did and even if they were we wouldn’t cross it

3rd goal no one can do what Jota did except Neto. And even if we did do it it would have been laid back to a WB or Neves and allowed the defense to reset.

Not sure if this is argument or agreement?

This situations still arise this season under new management but the players involved make different decisions. I don't think any of Lage's tactical changes have taken anything away from what Nuno had them doing, I think it's more down to individuals.
 

PuntsWolf

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Not sure if this is argument or agreement?

This situations still arise this season under new management but the players involved make different decisions. I don't think any of Lage's tactical changes have taken anything away from what Nuno had them doing, I think it's more down to individuals.
I’m agreeing.

Saying the decisions the players/management are making makes us less likely to score a goal despite ‘front foot manager’ and ‘80% of our training being attacking’
 
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Just shows we are very efficient and hard to beat. Most games we score first we win.
Thats not true though. We have lost ten games, more than any side in the top 11 of a 20 team league. We are hard to score against , but once you score against us you win, more often than not. In the first two seasons under Nuno in the prem we got a bit of a rep as the comeback kids , the team who won the most points from a losing position. Post lockdown that has gone. Post lockdown we have been a largely drab outfit to watch. Lage needed to win a couple of the games where we played sop well and lost. He didn't and it was plan B with the same players. That plan B has now become our go to approach as its pretty much being implemented by the same players. Raul has not scored with a header since his injury( telling) , Traore has gone, Trincoward is a waste of a shirt and Hwang is hot and cold. We dont create enough quality chances and when we do we havent the quality to finish them. Without Sa and Kilman we would be bottom 6, even with Lage playing higher up. Look how easy it was for Norwich in the cup. The main difference was Sa for Ruddy. I still believe my eyes when I think it is painfully obvious that we do the following
1. Put useless , aimless set pieces into areas that are not attacked
2. Slow down attacks unnecessarily because of our over cautious approach allowing opposition offences to reset.
3. Our midfield and defenders do not score enough , period. Its worldies or nothing.
4. Our strikers finishing is average at best.
5. Our strikers do not attack the 6 yard box, or make runs to that area out of instinct.

The only answer I can see, is to bring in players who can change that, and we have chosen not to for two or more windows.
 

Streetly Wolf

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I just don't get why he didn't give the initial plan more than three games. It was such a small sample to bin it off from, and I think we'd have been in as good or better a place by now. Even if a bit worse it would've been a lot of fun, entertaining and had a higher ceiling. I hate attritional football
I don’t know why he had to give up on it completely.

We have seen a few flashes (first 30 mins v Everton) but he could still play like that against Norwich, Burnley, Villa, etc or he could switch mid game occasionally if we are losing. It’s not as if was completely different personnel.
 

Haggstone

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Everton we’re just rubbish, the first half was possibly the worst performance I have seen at this level.
 
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