Wolves 1-0 Sheff Utd: Verdict Thread

[prawnking]

Yep, I should be off slitting my wrists somewhere and gnashing my teeth.

Yes, because the only options available are delusional extremes

 

[Tredman]

It wasn’t long ago people were raging because we always played badly and lost to the bottom teams.

 

[Dinowolf]

I think we will buy Vitinha. He has shown enough in flashes to be convinced that he can become a very good midfielder. He clearly looks forwards and likes to try and create things. More work on his all-round game and you could see him becoming a very useful player.

Give him a full pre-season and more and more minutes and I think he'll be sized up by Nuno to replace Moutinho in 12-18 months time IMO.

Agree with this apart from the final paragraph.

Moutino is very good at 'picking pockets' and defensive tackling, which I think is a talent too far for Vitinha to learn, and probably outside the scope of what will be expected of him as an attacking creator.

 

[AndyWolves]

Yes, because the only options available are delusional extremes

It was a boring, turgid match against a team who are bottom of the league. We had our two best players out injured and one of our other creative players was half injured.

We found a way to win, when in previous years we haven't. That's a positive

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I do find the overall reaction quite strange.

- The game meant absolutely nothing to us, the season is dead, has been for weeks
- Most of our attacking/creative elements are either injured, Covid riddled or not fit
- We never score many goals
- We play like that quite often
- We won
- We rarely looked like conceding
- We deserved to win (just)

Instead you get a competition as to who can be the most angry about it (not just on here). It's a strange, mundane season that we'll barely talk about in years to come. I mean unless it's me banging on about it to prove some obscure point or other, who talks about Ken's 2015/16 campaign now? No-one. It just gets forgotten because hardly anything happened, and we ended up muddling through from the distant outskirts of a relegation battle (if you're particularly pessimistic), doing enough to get results and finishing marooned in mid-table. No-one enjoyed it then, no-one cares now.

Let it go a bit, it'll be good for you.

Yes, if we play like this forever then it'll be shit, but my crystal ball's being repaired at the moment so I don't know what's going to happen.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Where have I said that?

I'll take winning every single time. I get more enjoyment out of winning games than I do losing games, but that's just me.

West ham was entertaining, but I don't want to see that ever again.

Prawn was correcting Darlo saying we had loads of players injured so it was miracle we managed to get a win. They had just as many (from a worse squad so more effect...).

I was then correcting the view that “how can you complain! we won!” and “Sheff Utd were fighting for their lives”. People were complaining about the display rather than the result (I do like to look past results, it’s a very basic view. Long term results regress to the mean of performances), and the sheff Utd bit is just a load of bollocks.

I then called you out on your nonsense sarcasm of “they’d walk into our team” which if anything backed the contrary view to the one you were making.

Then we are here, where you are putting cliches about good teams winning without playing well. Which is irrelevant to what I was saying. Winning does not have to mean we played well or were entertaining. That is all. Hopefully that is clearer?

It’s a forum, people debate, critique, analyse. We don’t just go “we won - good, we lost - bad”. Otherwise there would be no point in a verdict thread.

 

[Tredman]

Prawn was correcting Darlo saying we had loads of players injured so it was miracle we managed to get a win. They had just as many (from a worse squad so more effect...).

I was then correcting the view that “how can you complain! we won!” and “Sheff Utd were fighting for their lives”. People were complaining about the display rather than the result (I do like to look past results, it’s a very basic view. Long term results regress to the mean of performances), and the sheff Utd bit is just a load of bollocks.

I then called you out on your nonsense sarcasm of “they’d walk into our team” which if anything backed the contrary view to the one you were making.

Then we are here, where you are putting cliches about good teams winning without playing well. Which is irrelevant to what I was saying. Winning does not have to mean we played well or were entertaining. That is all. Hopefully that is clearer?

It’s a forum, people debate, critique, analyse. We don’t just go “we won - good, we lost - bad”. Otherwise there would be no point in a verdict thread.

There’s plenty of room for debate but given where we are, who’s missing and this season it’s really not worth getting het up about.

 

[AndyWolves]

Prawn was correcting Darlo saying we had loads of players injured so it was miracle we managed to get a win. They had just as many (from a worse squad so more effect...).

I was then correcting the view that “how can you complain! we won!” and “Sheff Utd were fighting for their lives”. People were complaining about the display rather than the result (I do like to look past results, it’s a very basic view. Long term results regress to the mean of performances), and the sheff Utd bit is just a load of bollocks.

I then called you out on your nonsense sarcasm of “they’d walk into our team” which if anything backed the contrary view to the one you were making.

Then we are here, where you are putting cliches about good teams winning without playing well. Which is irrelevant to what I was saying. Winning does not have to mean we played well or were entertaining. That is all. Hopefully that is clearer?

It’s a forum, people debate, critique, analyse. We don’t just go “we won - good, we lost - bad”. Otherwise there would be no point in a verdict thread.

I honestly couldn't care less about this game, we got the W. Nothing else is relevant to me at the moment.

I do find this forum sometimes become a circle jerk about who can be the most pissed off and critical.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The thing is you can talk about reversion to the mean, but everything suggests we're just a mid-table team without Raul (and without having replaced Jota's output adequately)...

Overall:

P32 W11 D8 L13 Pts 41 (1.28 PPG)

In 2021:

P16 W5 D5 L6 Pts 20 (1.25 PPG)

Since we lost to Albion (the nadir of a terrible spot of form, results wise at least - we actually played better than the points haul deserved, oddly):

P13 W5 D4 L4 Pts 19 (1.46 PPG)

Last 10 games:

P10 W4 D3 L3 Pts 15 (1.5 PPG)

Last 6 games:

P6 W2 D1 L3 Pts 7 (1.17 PPG) (NB - this includes games vs Man City and Liverpool, which account for two of the three defeats)

Overall results to date extrapolated over a season leaves us finishing on 48-49 points, which would have had you 12th/13th in 2018/19 and 12th/13th last season.

It is just what we are. You'll get the odd short-term oscillation either way but we've bobbed around between 12th and 14th for about five months now for the most part. That's likely where we'll finish.

Mid-table teams with literally nothing to play for, with a squad that's running on fumes and having to constantly name kids on the bench as we're running out of players, well they rarely light up the place in the closing weeks of a season. We aren't about to. I don't think so anyway.

So I have current expectations relative to the situation, I probably won't think the same way in August, depending how the squad looks.

 

[PuntsWolf]

There’s plenty of room for debate but given where we are, who’s missing and this season it’s really not worth getting het up about.

Agreed. I’m just posting the same view I had in October. We were boring with a full strength team more often than not and still are boring. Sadly I can’t just not go or not watch so I talk about how boring we are instead!

I honestly couldn't care less about this game, we got the W. Nothing else is relevant to me at the moment.

I do find this forum sometimes become a circle jerk about who can be the most pissed off and critical.

I’m not really that bothered about this result or this performance. This is what we are, a boring team. Just another result to add to the pattern.

I haven’t really commented on the game, I said it was boring last night and then today I’ve just be challenging the “circle jerk” that this is the best we can possibly expect.

Some people go wildly OTT with negativity but then at the same time people go wildly OTT with positivity. Both sides are as bad as each other

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We were frequently boring at plenty of points in 2018/19 and 2019/20 too, and both included at least one run of really shit form.

A lot of revisionism about the last two years. I tend not to include 2017/18 in that analysis as we were just far too good on and off the pitch for the rest of the league.

 

[Tredman]

Agreed. I’m just posting the same view I had in October. We were boring with a full strength team more often than not and still are boring. Sadly I can’t just not go or not watch so I talk about how boring we are instead!

Thing is we aren’t *that* different to the previous 2 season, it’s just much more exciting when you are in the ground (plus Raul). Numerous times I’ve come out buzzing and then read the match day thread with utter perplexity.

 

[Tredman]

We were frequently boring at plenty of points in 2018/19 and 2019/20 too, and both included at least one run of really shit form.

A lot of revisionism about the last two years. I tend not to include 2017/18 in that analysis as we were just far too good on and off the pitch for the rest of the league.

Meh, you had to say it better and quicker than me.

 

[PuntsWolf]

We were frequently boring at plenty of points in 2018/19 and 2019/20 too, and both included at least one run of really shit form.

A lot of revisionism about the last two years. I tend not to include 2017/18 in that analysis as we were just far too good on and off the pitch for the rest of the league.

I don’t think we’ve ever been particularly exciting. I’m certainly not in that myth camp. But it wasn’t this bad, we always at least carried some kind of threat.

A game I remember well was Millwall at home. Jota scored early on with a good strike,
Millwall were rubbish. They had a man sent off and even still it was a bit pedestrian despite a massive gulf in quality. Keeper made a few good saves but nothing outrageous.

 

[AndyWolves]

Agreed. I’m just posting the same view I had in October. We were boring with a full strength team more often than not and still are boring. Sadly I can’t just not go or not watch so I talk about how boring we are instead!


I’m not really that bothered about this result or this performance. This is what we are, a boring team. Just another result to add to the pattern.

I haven’t really commented on the game, I said it was boring last night and then today I’ve just be challenging the “circle jerk” that this is the best we can possibly expect.

Some people go wildly OTT with negativity but then at the same time people go wildly OTT with positivity. Both sides are as bad as each other

What? I don't think anyone has said this is the best we can expect, merely pragmatism about our current situation.

We all know we are capable of much more, but right know we aren't, and there are reasons for that.

That being said, a win is never a bad result

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Thing is we aren’t *that* different to the previous 2 season, it’s just much more exciting when you are in the ground (plus Raul). Numerous times I’ve come out buzzing and then read the match day thread with utter perplexity.

Absolutely, it does feel like those match going fans are far more critical when watching at home than when they've been to the game. I guess there might be potential few reasons for this?

* Alcohol,
* Being in a positive environment with friends and family, rather than alone at home,
* having to listen to the commentators who are often more negative than we would be (i felt that of Goodman last night)

Those aspects changing have surely made us more critical and more analytical? Therefore we consider the football to be less entertaining than it actually is/would be if we were there or if fans were there?

Also in most cases we wouldn't be diving on here at the final whistle to provide a verdict, we'd be going to the pub, driving home etc, a lot of time would pass before we get the opportunity to vent on here, and human nature suggests that we would all be more considered 30 mins, an hour or 3 hours after the final whistle.

How many of us have struggled to watch games that didn't involve Wolves since there have been no fans there? I know i have, i doubt i have watched more than 5 games in full over the last 12 months that weren't Wolves as it just seems so sterile, but the quality surely is no different to those games prior to Covid, yet i'd sit and watch 4 or 5 games a week back then.

If at Christmas we are still watching Wolves and moaning about entertainment i'll be really surprised.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Plus boring/pragmatic (whatever you want to call it) football gets given a bit of a pass when you’re consistently getting results. When it’s boring and you’re not getting results then questions start to get asked.

That is then exacerbated by ownership making stupid statements about vision and management making statements about improving style of play with limited evidence of it happening. Over selling, under delivering.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We kind of are getting results though, at least what you would expect given what we can send out most weeks. The margins have always been quite fine between us finishing 7th and being where we are now. In 2019 we were six points better off at this stage. Had scored eight more goals (hardly surprising given this was the peak of the Raul/Jota front two, neither of whom have had any proper role this season), conceded two fewer. It's not a huge stretch to find those six points out of certain games we've drawn/lost this season.

I'm honestly not arsed about what Jeff said three years ago, if fans want to hold him to some kind of standard where they take every statement he ever makes 100% literally then that's up to them.

We are objectively far more exciting when we play four at the back, which we never did at all until this season. Unfortunately it's more exciting at both ends and we can't sustain it at the moment.

 

[AndyWolves]

We kind of are getting results though, at least what you would expect given what we can send out most weeks. The margins have always been quite fine between us finishing 7th and being where we are now. In 2019 we were six points better off at this stage. Had scored eight more goals (hardly surprising given this was the peak of the Raul/Jota front two, neither of whom have had any proper role this season), conceded two fewer. It's not a huge stretch to find those six points out of certain games we've drawn/lost this season.

I'm honestly not arsed about what Jeff said three years ago, if fans want to hold him to some kind of standard where they take every statement he ever makes 100% literally then that's up to them.

We are objectively far more exciting when we play four at the back, which we never did at all until this season. Unfortunately it's more exciting at both ends and we can't sustain it at the moment.

I totally agree with the thing about what kind of rhetoric Jeff said three years ago. At the time I thought it was a bit ambitious and not something to be taken too literally (the amount of transformation required was huge), much less an objective to evaluate Fosun against.

If any other club had said it we'd have laughed, but to be fair to Fosun, they've got us a lot closer than I thought they would.

 

[Johnny75]

We kind of are getting results though, at least what you would expect given what we can send out most weeks. The margins have always been quite fine between us finishing 7th and being where we are now. In 2019 we were six points better off at this stage. Had scored eight more goals (hardly surprising given this was the peak of the Raul/Jota front two, neither of whom have had any proper role this season), conceded two fewer. It's not a huge stretch to find those six points out of certain games we've drawn/lost this season.

I'm honestly not arsed about what Jeff said three years ago, if fans want to hold him to some kind of standard where they take every statement he ever makes 100% literally then that's up to them.

We are objectively far more exciting when we play four at the back, which we never did at all until this season. Unfortunately it's more exciting at both ends and we can't sustain it at the moment.

You do highlight how poor our goals are without Raul and Jota. Neither of whom have been replaced adequately.

I loved the games at home against Leicester (Jota trick) and Man City (Doherty’s finest moment in a Wolves shirt), those are the games we want but under the current system we don’t seem to be able to get close to that kind of excitement.