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Thread: Formation Discussion Thread

  1. #1
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    Formation Discussion Thread

    yavoresc - if you haven't read this book then you are going to love it, it basically says most new formations in football owe a debt to developments in eastern europe and the author is a bit of an expert / a lot of a nerd about it. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Py.../dp/0752889958. Then again, you probably know more about it than he does so will end up hating it. However, it certainly doesn't commit the crime that causes despair as per your note above!

    Seems like you sort of agree with me in your review of the formations played by the top half clubs. Mind, I don't think Rooney is playing as part of a recognisable front 2 against any opposition anymore. His improvement has come as he's dropped into the 'false 9' role or whatever its called. None of which has anything to do with the thread so I guess I should be shifted off. or at least shut up.

  2. #2
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    the way I se it 3 formations exist now.

    433/451
    442
    4231

    The likes of Man United chop and change with it, whereas we need to find summit that works and stick to it.

    On Rooney, he is a number 10 for me.
    "I know I believe in nothing, but it is my nothing."

  3. #3
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    Plus there is the lovely

    4-1-3-1-1 diamond thing

    christmas tree

    4-3-2-1

    both vomit
    I'm looking California

    I'm feeling Minnesota

  4. #4
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    what a load of bollocks.
    the players start in 451, they morf into 433 whilst slipping into 442.

    or huge bollocks, they move within each system to nullify the opposition as the gane progresses?.


    or am i as pissed as i think i am.
    "Never enter into a battle of wits, with an unarmed man"

  5. #5
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    I always had success on Football Manager using a 3 5 2
    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post

    I honestly didn't think people were that stupid...

  6. #6
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    Formation Dancing, has anyone tried it? I haven't, not with my two left feet.

  7. #7
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    It's like Communism. Great in theory

    Like 352 that is
    Last edited by North West Wanderer; 30th May 2011 at 09:12 PM.
    "I know I believe in nothing, but it is my nothing."

  8. #8
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    It worries me when i hear talk of us finding the system and sticking to it, i.e 451 or 442.

    For me the reasonable way to use the squad is to use a horses for courses approach.
    We will come up against teams who flood their midfield, others will sit back and hit us on the break.
    We need to bring in the players to suit each game, and in training all of these systems should become the norm for the whole squad.

    I see no reason why we can't start a game 442 or 433, and switch to a more rigid 451 if needed. Usually a simple change of personnel during a game will reshape the side instantly.

    I would like to see Adlene get a more central role this season, and if we need a winger, then there's four to choose from, so use one.

    If it's all hands to the pumps, then let's move to 4231, with Foley and Henry as the two, Hunt, Adlene and O'Hara as the three, or Nenad in place of one of them.

    As long as we get a top class centre half to play alongside Berra or Stears, and to marshall the back four, poss including a new LB, we have the midfield and forward personnel to do the rest. I think there will be games for Henry, and others, where he should be warming the bench. But i think the squad should know that this goes for all of them from day one.
    "Never enter into a battle of wits, with an unarmed man"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dublin Drummer Wolf View Post
    I always had success on Football Manager using a 3 5 2
    I always go 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1, although I've never been fond of playing a lone striker unless the AMC is top quality and provides a legitimate attacking threat and can score goals.

  10. #10
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    I'm playing a 2-3-2-1-2 on FM at the moment. Basically a 4-4-2 diamond but with the full backs pushed up.

  11. #11
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    I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of us switching personnel and formation depending on who we play. The purist in me says that we should have our own style of play that we worry about, rather than concentrating on the oppostions.

    Clearly though, we are not Barcelona, or Manchester United, but I believe that to aspire to that level is no bad thing, and the start of that is to establish a club mentality regarding how we play, that is instilled in everyone at the club, from the moment they join.

    Cruyff we do not have unfortunately, so any dreams I have regarding Wolves adopting an out an out 4-3-3 with a total football mentality will probably remain just that, dreams.

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    We could still adopt a footballing mentality that could be transferred across several different formations, the main principles would still apply whether than be a short passing possesion game, a direct long ball game or sitting back waiting to counter. You could still then pick between whichever formation you think will provide the best chance of winning, for Arsenal say you may want the extra man in midfield to make their passing game more difficult, against Fulham or Stoke that extra man isn't really required. You can still play the same style of football regardless of where the players are on the pitch, just requires some good coaching so everyone knows what is expected of them and you get good enough movement to make it work in different formations.
    If you see a Possum, try to kill it, 'kay, it's not a pet.

  13. #13
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    The more patient ball retention based game allows your shape to change as you develop the play, if you play a long ball system the players have little time for cohesive movement.

  14. #14
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    You can still play long ball in any formation and you can still play possession football with any formation, the movement expected from players would need to be different to make any style of football work across different formations. Essentially i'd try to pick the style of play which best suited the players available, set up the coaching to make the most of this style across a few different formations, then choose whichever formation enables the team to defend best against the threats of any given opponent. You then select the personnel to best suit that formation, and/or counter the individual threats of the opposition, and if the coaching has been done well you should be able to play the same brand of football regardless of who is picked and who you are playing against.
    If you see a Possum, try to kill it, 'kay, it's not a pet.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MARKakaJIM View Post
    You can still play long ball in any formation and you can still play possession football with any formation, the movement expected from players would need to be different to make any style of football work across different formations. Essentially i'd try to pick the style of play which best suited the players available, set up the coaching to make the most of this style across a few different formations, then choose whichever formation enables the team to defend best against the threats of any given opponent. You then select the personnel to best suit that formation, and/or counter the individual threats of the opposition, and if the coaching has been done well you should be able to play the same brand of football regardless of who is picked and who you are playing against.
    Marka, I'm sure that exactly what i was advocating earlier, so i'm in 100% agreement.
    Players need to adapt to different formations and different teams and their style of play. Sure;y that's what they train all week to achieve.

    BUT, Wolves have to start showing far more movement off the ball, and more pass and move, if we are to become established in the prem.
    "Never enter into a battle of wits, with an unarmed man"

  16. #16
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    A few times this season we've changed our style to try and be more possession orientated and it worked pretty well but it was soon abandoned in favour of lumping it up at Doyle again, we've shown we can play the ball around nicely so its disappointing that we dont do more of it. More concerning is that we're often too concerned with what our opponents are doing and so we change things around to cancel out their threat but at a detriment to our own game, thats something that really needs to be addressed. We need that side of things built up whether it be through better coaching or better players so we can if needs be stick 2 combatitive players in the middle of the park against teams like Arsenal but then still be able to play some decent stuff when we get the ball. At the moment whenever we bring someone in to do a job of shutting down the opposition it seems to ruin our game as much as it does theirs, like having Guedioura or Foley on the right of midfield, or Mancienne in midfield previously.
    If you see a Possum, try to kill it, 'kay, it's not a pet.

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    But was this not what Ghoddle was trying to achieve?

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    Jonathan Wilson's take on things:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...2010-11-season
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  19. #19
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    Perhaps but the system was flawed due to Frankowski being NO Messi.

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    Doesn't Messi usually play from wide right though? I thought Villa usually played through the centre for them, although i think he did move out wide later in the season when the goals dried up for him, so Messi would be more like the inverted Winger than the false 9 with Alves providing the width from deep.
    If you see a Possum, try to kill it, 'kay, it's not a pet.

  21. #21
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    Messi's played centrally for virtually all of the season, with Pedro right and Villa left. Looks like Alexis Sanchez might be there this season too.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by NandoWolf View Post
    Messi's played centrally for virtually all of the season, with Pedro right and Villa left. Looks like Alexis Sanchez might be there this season too.
    Thats not how they appeared in the Champions league final, arguably that is the only Barca game i've watched in its entirety this season, but from things i've read/heard and seeing them in previous season Messi i always through Messi played off the right coming inside. There was actually something i read somewhere, will try and find it, about how Barca had been more successful and scored more goals earlier in the year with Messi wide and Villa central but when the latter was less prolific and they were swapped Messi scored more goals himself but the team suffered.
    If you see a Possum, try to kill it, 'kay, it's not a pet.

  23. #23
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    Whenever I've seen them this season, Messi has played as a deep central player. Argentina are now setting themselves up this way too. However, they play with such fluidity it's hard to define their front three's roles. The idea is that Messi pulls the centre halves away, or occupies the defensive midfielder to allow Pedro/Villa to run into the space, or give Xavi/Iniesta more time on the ball, see Barca's first goal in the CL final.

    Prior to Villa's arrival, I've always seen him starting from the right though.

  24. #24
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    With that front 3 its possible to have anyone of the forward players dropping into space to cause problems allowing the other 2 to makes runs in behind and create an opportunity where they can be put in on goal. If they get Sanchez to replace Pedro then you'd expect it to be even more threatening, had Messi broken into the first team when Ronaldinho was still there? Those 2 wide with Eto'o central would've been pretty tasty, although Eto'o wouldn't have come as deep or wide as Villa, but i think Giuly usually played on the right then like a fairly orthadox winger.
    If you see a Possum, try to kill it, 'kay, it's not a pet.

  25. #25
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    Messi will often drop into deeper positions from wide right to centre, when he does come off the flank that often seems the trigger for Dani Alves to bomb forward. Alves then creates the width and prevents the opposition from defending very narrow. With the quality of passing from front to back Messi can then receive the ball on the move facing defenders.

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