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Thread: Refereeing question

  1. #31
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    Hi Frank

    I ran the line in a junior fixture on Saturday morning. I was asked by the ref to delay putting the flag up for offside decisions to ensure that the player who was in the offside position actually went onto receive the ball or was interfering in play. Several times in the first half (which was odd as I was one of only two people on the line in that half) I was barracked by the opposing teams followers for decisions that I gave and this continued into the second half. At one point the ref had to speak to the barrackers who then, to be fair to them gave no further problems for the rest of the game. However later in the game the opposing teams manager took umbridge to a decision that I gave (he was about 15 yards away from being in line with it) and threw a tantrum on the sideline. He accused me of cheating, stated that if thats how you want to play the game you can stick it, and despite assurances from one of our own coaches who was in line with the decision and who stated it was a correct one, he continued to rant and rave on the sideline. My son's side were already 4-0 down and a couple of minutes later they conceeded a fifth goal at which point the ref stopped the game as the oppositions coach had still not calmed down. He asked me to stand down as linesman, stating that he was not accusing me of making any incorrect decisions or of cheating however in the interest of calming the situaton down it would be better if one of our teams coaches did the job. I wasn't happy with the ref to be honest as despite his assurances that I had done nothing wrong, it didn't look that way to the rest of the people in attendance at the game. The ref stated after the game that he will report the incidents in his report and report the opposing teams manager. My questions are therefore as follows:-

    1) Was the referee correct in dismissing me as a linesman to calm the situation down?
    2) What are your own views on the touching of the ball or interfering with play rule,especially in parks football, given the problems that this causes.

    Cheers,
    Sniffer
    Last edited by Sniffer Grouse; 8th October 2012 at 09:15 AM.

  2. #32
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    Sniffer, When the opponents coach approached you and started ranting, I wonder how long it was before the referee realised the situation that was developing, because he should have gone over to the coach and told him to move away from the line that you were patrolling. From your report into what happened, it is clear that the referee let you down badly. He should have backed you up, as you were assisting him. It is pointless reporting the opposing coach if he did not take action at the time. He has left himself wide open for an appeal. If I was you, I would bring the incident to the attention of the Referee's Secretary of the league in which your son's team play in.

    Offside causes more arguments than anything else, particularly at local level where there are not official assistants appointed. The referee was right to ask you to hold the flag until you knew who was receiving it. The change to law was brought in to stop assistants flagging a player offside who was not interfering with play. It can get confusing when first and second phases of play are brought into consideration, but my advice for assistants is simple. Hold the flag until the player receives the ball or is directly interfering with play. For example, being in the goalkeepers line of visiion. The only time I would ask for an early flag is if a player is chasing the ball as it goes towards the goalkeeper. Stop the game early to prevent a risk of injury due to a collision.
    I hope that clarifies things a little.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankMunro-371 View Post
    Sniffer, When the opponents coach approached you and started ranting, I wonder how long it was before the referee realised the situation that was developing, because he should have gone over to the coach and told him to move away from the line that you were patrolling. From your report into what happened, it is clear that the referee let you down badly. He should have backed you up, as you were assisting him. It is pointless reporting the opposing coach if he did not take action at the time. He has left himself wide open for an appeal. If I was you, I would bring the incident to the attention of the Referee's Secretary of the league in which your son's team play in.

    Offside causes more arguments than anything else, particularly at local level where there are not official assistants appointed. The referee was right to ask you to hold the flag until you knew who was receiving it. The change to law was brought in to stop assistants flagging a player offside who was not interfering with play. It can get confusing when first and second phases of play are brought into consideration, but my advice for assistants is simple. Hold the flag until the player receives the ball or is directly interfering with play. For example, being in the goalkeepers line of visiion. The only time I would ask for an early flag is if a player is chasing the ball as it goes towards the goalkeeper. Stop the game early to prevent a risk of injury due to a collision.
    I hope that clarifies things a little.
    So to sum up...The ref is shit?

  4. #34
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    We had a nice ref in micro's game on Sunday (a 7-6 humdinger that should have been first up on MOTD2 (BOOOOOO BBC for ignoring the grass roots). Really reffed the game pretty well, but he played 2.5 minutes of added time in a 20 minute half when we were hanging on at 6-6 and then blew up within a second of the winner being scored. There were no injuries so it was a bizarre amount of Fergie time (only stoppage was a mass substitution by each side and a brief pause to tie our defender's laces).

    Oh well. Cracking game though.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    a brief pause to tie our defender's laces

    .
    Ronald Zubar plays in the same team as Micro Squeeze?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    So to sum up...The ref is shit?
    No, I am not saying that. He may have had a very good game, but he acted incorrectly in his handling of the specific situation that was mentioned.

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    Shit then...

  8. #38
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    The referee should back up his officials and sent that manager to the stands or well to the oposite end of the field. Abuse of the linesmen should not be tolerated

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    We had a nice ref in micro's game on Sunday (a 7-6 humdinger that should have been first up on MOTD2 (BOOOOOO BBC for ignoring the grass roots). Really reffed the game pretty well, but he played 2.5 minutes of added time in a 20 minute half when we were hanging on at 6-6 and then blew up within a second of the winner being scored. There were no injuries so it was a bizarre amount of Fergie time (only stoppage was a mass substitution by each side and a brief pause to tie our defender's laces).

    Oh well. Cracking game though.
    Referees should add on thirty seconds for each substitution. So I wonder how long it took for the mass substitutions to take place. As a matter of interest Paddy, do they have rolling substitutions in their league?

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    Frank. In regards to kids games the 30 second rule is quite loose and most teams do use rolling subs. I'd say on average in the kids games. 3 mins is the normal for added on time

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonjelly View Post
    I picture them more like this:
    Apart from Yabaa needing a serious slap when i stop laughing, i'll go with this one, they were my muppett heroes among with the Swedish chef.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankMunro-371 View Post
    Referees should add on thirty seconds for each substitution. So I wonder how long it took for the mass substitutions to take place. As a matter of interest Paddy, do they have rolling substitutions in their league?
    Yes


    Both teams made three subs but they are all made at the ten minute mark of each twenty minute half as there is an unwritten agreement to give all the boys equal game-time where possible. The exception is the goalkeepers who stay on the pitch for the whole match (hence why micro likes the gloves!)

    So it was effectively one mass substitution for thirty seconds and one lace tie-up to make about a minute by my watch.
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  13. #43
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    It embarrasses me when coach's do that. They need some perspective and the fact you volunteered to do the line in the first place tells me the ref needs to have faith in your decisions. I'm sure it's not easy to ref at any level. It is much easier to coach, whatever any coach says, it is hard to coach with dignity these days.

    I stopped coaching at junior level when one parent threatened to smack me because his son was an unused sub in an U15 match. The lad didn't care too much and I explained why to him, the players are great the parents are in general good but the odd couple are complete numpties. We have a long way to go I think. Oddly enough many pro ref's think it's easier reff'ing competitive games at a semi-professional level than at youth or amateur level.

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    I have seen some absolute dingbat behaviour on the sidelines at junior matches. One parent threatened to hit our captain (who was 7 at the time). Needless to say that was reported.

    However, by way of balance, one of the referees, who also happens to be Chairman of the Stourbridge junior league that we play in, is absolutely tremendous and an absolute credit. Helps the boys understand decisions, works with them on foul throws rather than rigidly enforcing the law at the first time of asking, and recognises who he is dealing with. These are not pros. They are kids, and fun is the main aim of the day. When I see him turn up to referee one of our matches I am instantly heartened because I know that the referee is going to enhance the boys' enjoyment of the match.
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    Reffing at youth level is a nightmare. Parents are too overly involved and the abuse the ref gets is most of the time on par with what you hear at Molineux and no Coach should have to explain to a parent why their kid was not used. These people need to seriously look at themselves in the mirror before they judge anyone else's actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Reffing at youth level is a nightmare. Parents are too overly involved and the abuse the ref gets is most of the time on par with what you hear at Molineux and no Coach should have to explain to a parent why their kid was not used. These people need to seriously look at themselves in the mirror before they judge anyone else's actions.
    This is true, but the flip-side for me is that most of the coaches that I've come across at youth level are also knobs who think they are Alex Fergusson or Jose Mourinho, and that winning at all costs is the be-all and end-all of the game. Most of them have never played the game and haven't a clue about it. In fact the worst kids coach I've ever come across was also a qualified referee, he managed my son for a (short) while at under 12 age, he would lay into the kids with foul language often reducing some of them to tears. Typical ref, loved the power.
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    Our kids captain has just joining the stripey shite academy and the director made it very clear that in the club's eyes the only team for which the result matters is the first team. Every other side is about enjoyment and improvement as a player. Some of the coaches and parents I watch seem to think every under-7 game is the bloody FA Cup final.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    I have seen some absolute dingbat behaviour on the sidelines at junior matches. One parent threatened to hit our captain (who was 7 at the time). Needless to say that was reported.

    However, by way of balance, one of the referees, who also happens to be Chairman of the Stourbridge junior league that we play in, is absolutely tremendous and an absolute credit. Helps the boys understand decisions, works with them on foul throws rather than rigidly enforcing the law at the first time of asking, and recognises who he is dealing with. These are not pros. They are kids, and fun is the main aim of the day. When I see him turn up to referee one of our matches I am instantly heartened because I know that the referee is going to enhance the boys' enjoyment of the match.
    I ref for my lad's under-9's team, and probably would get shot by a pro - I give kids a second go at a foul throw, having told them what they are doing wrong - I tell the keeper when he can and when he can't pick it up - and I actually applaud the players when they do something good.

    Last week, I had some parent yell for a penalty when the ball bounced up and hit a player's hand when the player was miles away from anyone else, and gave him no advantage whatsoever - unless a player deliberately handles the ball, or it gives him a big advantage, I'm not going to give it.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by arklowolf View Post
    This is true, but the flip-side for me is that most of the coaches that I've come across at youth level are also knobs who think they are Alex Fergusson or Jose Mourinho, and that winning at all costs is the be-all and end-all of the game. Most of them have never played the game and haven't a clue about it. In fact the worst kids coach I've ever come across was also a qualified referee, he managed my son for a (short) while at under 12 age, he would lay into the kids with foul language often reducing some of them to tears. Typical ref, loved the power.
    That truly is a disgrace. No coach/ref/adult should swear at a child. That truly is awful to hear. It's this type of things that needs irradicating from the Modern game at all levels

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    Quote Originally Posted by arklowolf View Post
    This is true, but the flip-side for me is that most of the coaches that I've come across at youth level are also knobs who think they are Alex Fergusson or Jose Mourinho, and that winning at all costs is the be-all and end-all of the game. Most of them have never played the game and haven't a clue about it. In fact the worst kids coach I've ever come across was also a qualified referee, he managed my son for a (short) while at under 12 age, he would lay into the kids with foul language often reducing some of them to tears. Typical ref, loved the power.
    I think the last sentence is a little unfair. Most referees are in it for the love of the game, many having played and wanting to give something back. I accept that there may be a tiny minority who treat being a referee as being on some kind of ego trip, and want to show that they are the boss. These referees very rarely get anywhere on the promotion ladder. A good referee is one who is totally impartial and treats every game as his most important ever, and is always respectful of the players. Any referee who adopts those three principles will find the path to promotion is a lot easier.

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    Quick one I just remembered from a couple weeks back, has anyone ever given a foul or had one given against them for 'failing the duty of care'?

    The situation: Tracking back from midfield and the opponents square the ball across the edge of our box. I anticipate the player receiving the pass is going to let the ball run across his body so I slide in down the side and hook the ball away. As their player comes across to follow the path of the ball he falls over me, not expecting a challenge to be coming in.

    I won the ball cleanly before the momentum of both of us causes a collision, I don't see how its a foul, I was moving reasonably quickly but I was in no way reckless.
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    That's not a foul!!

    You get some real knobhead coaches mind. My (then) u11s were playing Broadwater farm, and went one nil up in side the first minute because their goalkeeper kicked it straight to our forward. The coach took him off and didn't bring him back on!! poor kid was only ten years old!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankMunro-371 View Post
    I think the last sentence is a little unfair. Most referees are in it for the love of the game, many having played and wanting to give something back. I accept that there may be a tiny minority who treat being a referee as being on some kind of ego trip, and want to show that they are the boss. These referees very rarely get anywhere on the promotion ladder. A good referee is one who is totally impartial and treats every game as his most important ever, and is always respectful of the players. Any referee who adopts those three principles will find the path to promotion is a lot easier.
    As a former national referee and assessor (I retired three years ago), I fully endorse Frank's characterization. The power vested in the referee is to make the game flow fairly, never to boost his (or her) ego.

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    Yep you're right, my comment doesn't read like I meant it to.
    I've known some great refs as well as the crap ones. so 'typical' was the wrong word to use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankMunro-371 View Post
    Sniffer, When the opponents coach approached you and started ranting, I wonder how long it was before the referee realised the situation that was developing, because he should have gone over to the coach and told him to move away from the line that you were patrolling. From your report into what happened, it is clear that the referee let you down badly. He should have backed you up, as you were assisting him. It is pointless reporting the opposing coach if he did not take action at the time. He has left himself wide open for an appeal. If I was you, I would bring the incident to the attention of the Referee's Secretary of the league in which your son's team play in.

    Offside causes more arguments than anything else, particularly at local level where there are not official assistants appointed. The referee was right to ask you to hold the flag until you knew who was receiving it. The change to law was brought in to stop assistants flagging a player offside who was not interfering with play. It can get confusing when first and second phases of play are brought into consideration, but my advice for assistants is simple. Hold the flag until the player receives the ball or is directly interfering with play. For example, being in the goalkeepers line of visiion. The only time I would ask for an early flag is if a player is chasing the ball as it goes towards the goalkeeper. Stop the game early to prevent a risk of injury due to a collision.
    I hope that clarifies things a little.
    Thanks for the reply Frank. I spoke to a club official last night who has taken statements aout Saturdays events and they have gone into the league. He wasn't at the game but said that in reality our side were within our rights not to agree to the refs request as he should really deal with the offending coach and not the linesman. Reading between the lines now the ref has a choice whether or not to admit that he failed to control the situation correctly in his actions or jump into bed with the opposition and state that I was a complete buffoon. who didn't know the rules and was therefore the cause of all of the problems. I will let you know the outcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arklowolf View Post
    This is true, but the flip-side for me is that most of the coaches that I've come across at youth level are also knobs who think they are Alex Fergusson or Jose Mourinho, and that winning at all costs is the be-all and end-all of the game. Most of them have never played the game and haven't a clue about it. In fact the worst kids coach I've ever come across was also a qualified referee, he managed my son for a (short) while at under 12 age, he would lay into the kids with foul language often reducing some of them to tears. Typical ref, loved the power.
    It is a shame you have met some coaches with poor attitudes and swearing should be a league and police matter as it is abuse. The coach can be struck off from the relative FA and coaching lists for that and should be. Your comment in bold is unfair, disparaging and insulting to anybody that has held a coaching badge. It is also the argument (a) Football fans use for professional referees and hear some pundits using on the telly and therefore think it's ok to spout the same rubbish on the sideline on a Sunday and (b) use it as a stick to think they know best.

    I have held very high level coaching badges and can tell you that, without exception, the youth coaches I have been on courses with or coached against have some knowledge of the game. It is usually the parent that 'helps out with coaching, because I used to play didn't I' that is the problem. Surprisingly enough these characters never take the Line job, spineless cretins that they are. Playing or being able to play the game is completely irrelevant at youth level, what would being Patrick Viera add to an U11 parks side? And young referees are helped by coaches that understand the predicament, and I'm sure you know that all coaches that take their level 1 have to pass a small test on the LOAF (Laws of Association Football) and get a copy of it.

    They should have the LOAF online for most parents as the rules escape most of them. And as Paddy says it's about having fun at that level, nothing else.
    Last edited by Johnny75; 10th October 2012 at 08:27 AM.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniffer Grouse View Post
    Thanks for the reply Frank. I spoke to a club official last night who has taken statements aout Saturdays events and they have gone into the league. He wasn't at the game but said that in reality our side were within our rights not to agree to the refs request as he should really deal with the offending coach and not the linesman. Reading between the lines now the ref has a choice whether or not to admit that he failed to control the situation correctly in his actions or jump into bed with the opposition and state that I was a complete buffoon. who didn't know the rules and was therefore the cause of all of the problems. I will let you know the outcome.
    I await the conclusion with interest. It does appear that this referee took what he considered to be the easiest option. Refereeing is about taking the right option, not the easy one.

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    Not sure if this is anywhere on here but thought those that think they know may have a go (without cheating)

    http://www.ultralase.com/vites/referee-theory-test

    I got 7 out of 12 which is average at best I think.

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    I had a go at that on the Mix forum and shamefully got 6/12.

    Annoyingly it doesn't give you the answers.

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