View Poll Results: Where were/are you?

Voters
35. You may not vote on this poll
  • Voted Remain, Still Remain

    30 85.71%
  • Voted Remain, Now Leave

    0 0%
  • Voted Leave, Still Leave

    4 11.43%
  • Voted Leave, Now Remain

    1 2.86%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 83

Thread: Brexit, 15 months(ish) on

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Pendeford
    Posts
    63,753
    Quote Originally Posted by Visage View Post
    Exactly. The EU negotiate on behalf of the EU. Britain negotiates on behalf of Britain.

    Sadly they have a royal flush and we have three jokers.
    And we have about six chips. And they have several thousand. And we just went all in. Bet they fold...
    I'm looking California

    I'm feeling Minnesota

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    33,025
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Towner View Post
    It's not an argument I understand. Whether you voted leave or remain, what do you expect the EU to do? We voted leave, they have so much more to offer than we do and lose if our deal is seen as easy or too advantageous. Why would their negotiation position at this stage be anything other than a hardline stance?
    Because hardline isn't best for the companies and the people that live in the EU. The only people that it's good for are those who want to keep the EU together for their own gains.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Stafford
    Posts
    13,326
    Most people in the EU couldnít care less, Brexit is a complete non-event now - we donít matter. There will be a small loss to their GDP, but itís a gnats bite compared to what will happen to us.

    Thatís always been our failing, thinking we are more important and central than we are.
    )

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    They are not negotiating on what is best though are they? They are negotiating to hold the EU together.
    Because keeping the EU together is better for the EU than a good deal with the UK, particularly a UK that wants an exit on their terms. We had no plan, we still have no plan...did we really expect the EU to do it for us?
    No.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Bilbrook
    Posts
    86,647
    Here's an example of what a mess it is from our side.

    This is the PM's press office today:

    “The prime minister reassured the group that Brexit meant the UK was leaving the EU, not Europe, and reiterated her ambition for free and frictionless trade with the EU27 once the UK departs"
    Fine. That's a perfectly reasonable stance to use as a starting point. Free trade would be great.

    So why has she already committed to pulling us out of the single market and the customs union? There was no need to do any of that, like there was no need to invoke A50 before we'd done any planning at all, and there was no need to waste time with a General Election.

    Then you have positions such as the Irish border where it is incumbent on US to come up with a solution and we either can't or won't do it.

    And we still haven't guaranteed EU citizens' rights here. This has been going on for well over a year. We're still intent on using it as a bargaining chip even though it's getting us nowhere and it's simply awful for those individuals who are personally affected.

    You cannot realistically slate the EU for the lack of progress on talks when we aren't even offering a stance they can argue against. We've done nothing. Absolutely fucking nothing.
    The rain falls hard on a humdrum town.

    http://oscillatingwildly.net
    Twitter
    Facebook

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    6,939
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    Because hardline isn't best for the companies and the people that live in the EU.
    Based on?

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Derby
    Posts
    16,002
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    Because hardline isn't best for the companies and the people that live in the EU. The only people that it's good for are those who want to keep the EU together for their own gains.
    Why is it best for people living in the EU? A net contributor is about to leave, why are they better off if we can do that without sanction / paying for access?

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    33,025
    Quote Originally Posted by The Saturday Boy View Post
    Because keeping the EU together is better for the EU than a good deal with the UK, particularly a UK that wants an exit on their terms. We had no plan, we still have no plan...did we really expect the EU to do it for us?
    I disagree, the EU will stay together if the Countries within it still thinks it's a good idea. If they don't they should be allowed to leave and the EU should sort out terms that are best for both sides.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Stafford
    Posts
    13,326
    But no countries actually want to leave, other than us, itís not even remotely close.
    )

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    33,025
    Quote Originally Posted by tredman View Post
    But no countries actually want to leave, other than us, itís not even remotely close.
    What makes you think this? I'm pretty sure most people thought we didn't want to leave.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Pendeford
    Posts
    63,753
    27 countries think it is a fucking spiffing idea
    I'm looking California

    I'm feeling Minnesota

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Bilbrook
    Posts
    86,647
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    I disagree, the EU will stay together if the Countries within it still thinks it's a good idea. If they don't they should be allowed to leave and the EU should sort out terms that are best for both sides.
    Why is that down to the EU?

    WE (by a tiny minority) decided to leave. The onus is on us if anything.

    We have known for months what the EU need us to do so we can move on to the next stage. None of it is unreasonable, we know there is a bill to settle before we leave, whether Boris thinks "go whistle" is an appropriate response or not. We know that we have to agree to the rights of EU citizens already settled here being maintained. We won't do it. So nothing will happen.

    There is no hardline stance from the EU. The order of events is settled. If we don't do it then there'll be no deal. Which would mean for at least a short period of time, we would be the only country on the entire planet to be operating purely on WTO tariffs (assuming our current membership of the WTO as part of the EU bloc carries over) because we would have no FTAs with anyone at all. You would think this might focus the mind of the cretins in DexEU but no. Meanwhile May contradicts herself constantly and can't manage her Cabinet.

    We're the ones who have messed this right up. It was a crap situation to be thrown into and we've made the worst possible job of it.
    The rain falls hard on a humdrum town.

    http://oscillatingwildly.net
    Twitter
    Facebook

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Pendeford
    Posts
    63,753
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    What makes you think this? I'm pretty sure most people thought we didn't want to leave.
    Well nobody else is going to be so fucking stupid as to hold a referendum about it.
    I'm looking California

    I'm feeling Minnesota

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Stafford
    Posts
    13,326

    Brexit, 15 months(ish) on

    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    What makes you think this? I'm pretty sure most people thought we didn't want to leave.
    Plenty of polls (admittedly can be wrong, but unlikely to be wrong by 30+%), plus I work all over Europe and other than one French person have not spoken to a single person who actively wants to leave - plenty who think the EU isnít perfect, but most are sensible enough to understand that nothing is perfect and you canít have everything you want - even when itís been written on the side of a bus.
    )

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    33,025
    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsch Wolf View Post
    Why is that down to the EU?

    WE (by a tiny minority) decided to leave. The onus is on us if anything.

    We have known for months what the EU need us to do so we can move on to the next stage. None of it is unreasonable, we know there is a bill to settle before we leave, whether Boris thinks "go whistle" is an appropriate response or not. We know that we have to agree to the rights of EU citizens already settled here being maintained. We won't do it. So nothing will happen.

    There is no hardline stance from the EU. The order of events is settled. If we don't do it then there'll be no deal. Which would mean for at least a short period of time, we would be the only country on the entire planet to be operating purely on WTO tariffs (assuming our current membership of the WTO as part of the EU bloc carries over) because we would have no FTAs with anyone at all. You would think this might focus the mind of the cretins in DexEU but no. Meanwhile May contradicts herself constantly and can't manage her Cabinet.

    We're the ones who have messed this right up. It was a crap situation to be thrown into and we've made the worst possible job of it.
    But regardless of how shit we've been and I agree we've got clueless people negotiating, why does there need to be an order of events? There's a list of what needs sorting and you should be negotiating all subjects in conjunction with each other. Regardless of who is at fault, all that will end up happening is there will be no deal and that isn't the best for either side.

  16. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    33,025
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    Well nobody else is going to be so fucking stupid as to hold a referendum about it.
    I don't think Poland are too far off.

  17. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Pendeford
    Posts
    63,753
    If we don't agree the exit bill that is a red line then I don't see what can be done. And that is all down to us.
    I'm looking California

    I'm feeling Minnesota

  18. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    33,025
    Quote Originally Posted by tredman View Post
    Plenty of polls (admittedly can be wrong, but unlikely to be wrong by 30+%), plus I work all over Europe and other than one French person have not spoken to a single person who actively wants to leave - plenty who think the EU isnít perfect, but most are sensible enough to understand that nothing is perfect and you canít have everything you want - even when itís been written on the side of a bus.
    I'm not sure you'll be talking to your average leave voter if you're in Europe on business.

  19. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Stafford
    Posts
    13,326
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    I'm not sure you'll be talking to your average leave voter if you're in Europe on business.
    Most of my time is spent in our factories in France, Poland, Hungary and Germany. I would imagine that is where you would expect to find your average leave voters. Most just think weíre idiots.
    )

  20. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Stafford
    Posts
    13,326
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    I don't think Poland are too far off.
    I wouldnít take the Express as a good source.
    )

  21. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Bilbrook
    Posts
    86,647
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    But regardless of how shit we've been and I agree we've got clueless people negotiating, why does there need to be an order of events? There's a list of what needs sorting and you should be negotiating all subjects in conjunction with each other. Regardless of who is at fault, all that will end up happening is there will be no deal and that isn't the best for either side.
    The best course of action would be to revoke A50 and attempt to start this off again, doing it bloody properly this time. It doesn't mean you're cancelling the process altogether but it gives you a clear run at actually sorting things out. Too much time has been wasted now because our Government likes to posture and play to the hardline right-wing element of the press (May was at a dinner celebrating Dacre's 25 years at the Mail only last week, what does that tell you). The EU would probably say yes because they could do with as little changing as possible, though as has been pointed out, a big rupture causes us far, far, far more pain than it does them.

    We'd also need a new Government, doesn't matter whether it's Tory, Labour, even a grand coalition of some sort. It requires competence. Not incompetent people being put in place as some kind of game. Not when that incompetence is underlined time and time again, but the Government's inherent weakness prevents those responsible from being removed. Not when the best interests of the country aren't the main focus, but silly little power plays and stupid bombastic statements. Not where the Daily fucking Mail runs the agenda. More importantly it needs a proper Prime Minister because we do not have one.

    I do not expect either of those steps to take place.
    The rain falls hard on a humdrum town.

    http://oscillatingwildly.net
    Twitter
    Facebook

  22. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    33,025
    I agree, but like you say, neither are going to happen.

  23. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Bilbrook
    Posts
    86,647
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    I agree, but like you say, neither are going to happen.
    I'm sure you've dealt with people in business where although there might be a potential financial benefit to you working with them, the reality is that they're too much of a nightmare to deal with to make any of it worth it.

    That is pretty much where the EU are with us now. And as these chancers are unlikely to be removed - we'll end up with a dreadful outcome that we can't easily undo.

    The worst of it is that they'll make out at the end that it wasn't their fault. They'll blame the EU or Remain MPs (or even voters, as ridiculous as that would be) who weren't sufficiently patriotic.
    The rain falls hard on a humdrum town.

    http://oscillatingwildly.net
    Twitter
    Facebook

  24. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    spiderland
    Posts
    4,014
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    If we don't agree the exit bill that is a red line then I don't see what can be done. And that is all down to us.
    i dunno if it's right, but I thought i'd read somewhere that the EU has said we don't need to agree a figure, but need to agree the principles by which the figure is then worked out. probably just as difficult for our lot to do but once that had been agreed we could move to a next stage. though even if we could get to that stage, there just seems insufficient time to deliver anything tangible in the time left.
    it is not that I have no past. rather, it continually fragments on the terrible and vivid ephemera of now.

  25. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    spiderland
    Posts
    4,014
    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsch Wolf View Post
    I'm sure you've dealt with people in business where although there might be a potential financial benefit to you working with them, the reality is that they're too much of a nightmare to deal with to make any of it worth it.

    That is pretty much where the EU are with us now. And as these chancers are unlikely to be removed - we'll end up with a dreadful outcome that we can't easily undo.

    The worst of it is that they'll make out at the end that it wasn't their fault. They'll blame the EU or Remain MPs (or even voters, as ridiculous as that would be) who weren't sufficiently patriotic.
    that would be actually someone like john redwood who's been busy advising investors to steer clear of Britain.
    it is not that I have no past. rather, it continually fragments on the terrible and vivid ephemera of now.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    I disagree, the EU will stay together if the Countries within it still thinks it's a good idea. If they don't they should be allowed to leave and the EU should sort out terms that are best for both sides.
    It’s not going to be seen as a good idea to stay if you can leave and keep all the benefits. Any country that chooses to leave should not expect the EU to “sort out the terms” but say they did...what are the terms that are best for both sides? For a start, we need inward immigration so should the EU determine our immigration policy? Should the EU sort out the trade deal including continued access to the internal market and customs union which many think would represent a good deal but also prevents us negotiating other trade deals. Should the EU sort out the terms for disputes resolution, say keep the ECJ?

    Most of the EU would probably argue that the terms that are best for both sides are pretty much the current terms, most of which our government have ruled out.
    No.

  27. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    13,047
    This is a difficult poll for me. I was leave. I am still leave. However those charged with government and managing the whole leave process are morons in whom I have little confidence and no trust. We might get the right outcome in spite of their incompetent ideas and methods. So I will tick leave leave and offer this paragraph as explanation.
    Remember, remember we are doing OK this November .

  28. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Derby
    Posts
    16,002
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber-_-man View Post
    This is a difficult poll for me. I was leave. I am still leave. However those charged with government and managing the whole leave process are morons in whom I have little confidence and no trust. We might get the right outcome in spite of their incompetent ideas and methods. So I will tick leave leave and offer this paragraph as explanation.
    Genuinely interested to know which none morons were you expecting to negotiate it? Cameron and Gideon were always going to be toast if they lost, which meant the current lot were always going to be leading it.

  29. #59
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Lincoln
    Posts
    2,353
    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    I disagree, the EU will stay together if the Countries within it still thinks it's a good idea. If they don't they should be allowed to leave and the EU should sort out terms that are best for both sides.
    Wasn't it the EU purportedly telling us what to do which encouraged some Leave voters in the first place? To reclaim our sovereignty? So then handing those same people the responsibility for negotiating our exit is somewhat contadictorary?

  30. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    13,047
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Towner View Post
    Genuinely interested to know which none morons were you expecting to negotiate it? Cameron and Gideon were always going to be toast if they lost, which meant the current lot were always going to be leading it.
    Cameron. See my earlier posts. His abject failure to see through his crass error to iyts conclusion will go down as political cowardice on a grand scale. So he made way for a TM and co creating such havoc we now have a hung parliament and are in three times the mess we should have been or would have been if he stayed. Gideon was already history. Cameron, I felt , could have stayed. Other brexiters or on the fence brexiters would then have come forward instead of the them and us that has now been created. Yes it was always going to be tories leading us out but there could and should have been many better politicians with far more capable methods backed by a leader who could have looked stronger and yet humble. He fell on his sword and fucked off when it got the slightest bit difficult and created the chaos void that these numpties have been only too keen to fill.
    Remember, remember we are doing OK this November .

Similar Threads

  1. A couple of Brexit Questions...
    By Wolf Hunting in forum Current Affairs
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 22nd June 2017, 11:20 PM
  2. Brexit and Nouha Dicko
    By victhegreek in forum Wolves
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 25th June 2016, 12:15 PM
  3. Dutch Hooligan. 6 Months, is it enough?
    By pavlosmacwolf in forum Other Sport
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 30th December 2011, 02:54 PM
  4. Jody offered a further 12 months
    By leedswolf in forum Wolves
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 31st May 2011, 11:34 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •