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Thread: Shamima Begum

  1. #151
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    Even if you do believe they get paid enough - what's the answer? She doesn't get legal representation?
    )

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    Jesus this is hard work. You are effectively GIVING your time for free because it doesn’t pay. This is an appeal against the Home Secretary so is going High Court minimum, realistically House of Lords. So rights of audience rules say you are going to need a barrister and very probably a silk. Which you are paying for out of that £50 to £70 an hour you get from the government. So unless they are pro bono that is a loss making exercise. Want to interview the client? Then travel to Syria is charged at £27 an hour. Good luck with getting flights at that price. Do it by phone and you can claim FOUR QUID
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    You do know that doing purely legal aid work is basically working on the breadline? There is bugger all money in it and most legal aid d)lawyers do it for reasons other than personal enrichment?
    They would say that wouldn't they?
    'I never predict anything and I never will'......Paul Gascoigne.

  4. #154
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    Yes I would
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  5. #155
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    Criminal legal aid and civil legal aid have been stripped beyond the bare bones by austerity.
    The result has been a legal advice wilderness for the majority of the population, which has created a wealth of opportunity for disaster capitalists.
    Most civil legal aid organisations were charities and have gone under as a result of their loss of funding.
    The fact that the legal aid system is not worth it to lawyers is a travesty. Doing legal aid cases isn't sufficient to build a practise on. Most lawyers who run legal aid did so more because of the implications of the cases. In most cases, prior to austerity, they covered their costs, and trained new staff. Occasionally they did a bit of pro bono work on top of this.
    Where was the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom!

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    Then travel to Syria is charged at £27 an hour. Good luck with getting flights at that price. Do it by phone and you can claim FOUR QUID
    Surely Ryanair fly there (well, Iraq but they will class it as Syria)

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber-_-man View Post
    Nope , still not feeling that sympathitic to lawyers. newly qualified teacher starts at 23.5 k.Newly qualified solicitor 25-40k. I agree that legal aid does not pay great but then nor does NHS dentists. I dont know a private firm that is purely run on legal aid but I also dont know a private dentist that is purely NHS. An NHS dentist is 38k to 83k so again I dont have much sympathy for them in my "needs a pay rise" list

    I know plenty of teachers on under 25k. I know plenty of police officers under 25k. I know firefighters under 25k, I know soldiers on under 25k soI am afraid even with the argument of my Learned friend, Lawyers / solicitors still earn enough.
    I worked in an FE college for 7 years. For almost 4 years I've worked in higher education.
    In that time I've met zero teachers on under £25k. I worked on schemes to recruit people to the police force. After training, all started on over £25k. A mate of mine is a firefighter. On well above £25k, and none of his crew are on less than that.
    All tough, intensive jobs. Deserving of a decent salary. Even so, the comparison is relatively pointless (even if it is untrue in the majority of cases). Any legal work costs money to complete. If it isn't cost effective to do the work, lawyers won't do it. Then only the rich will have access to legal advice they can pay for.

    Who is that better for? disaster capitalists and brexit loving misguided individuals who will be in for a hell of a "woe is me" moment when the full implications become clear to them.
    Where was the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom!

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    Jesus this is hard work. You are effectively GIVING your time for free because it doesn’t pay. This is an appeal against the Home Secretary so is going High Court minimum, realistically House of Lords. So rights of audience rules say you are going to need a barrister and very probably a silk. Which you are paying for out of that £50 to £70 an hour you get from the government. So unless they are pro bono that is a loss making exercise. Want to interview the client? Then travel to Syria is charged at £27 an hour. Good luck with getting flights at that price. Do it by phone and you can claim FOUR QUID
    I suggest that she try crowdfunding it then if , now granted legal aid, that is not enough. ( good luck with that justgiving page)

    It may well be a loss making exercise but I bet she ends up with a bloody good brief even if the "amount claimable" will be small. LJ is right, austerity is a problem but thats not the debate.
    Remember, remember we are shit in November .

  9. #159
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    crowdfunding is essentially filling a gap that appropriate taxation and apportioning of tax funds should be fulfilling in a decent society.

    Sadly, it results in only cases getting funding where the "marketing" of the case draws attention, rather than legal merits and benefits. Loads of cases go unheard as a result. And the law is less beneficial to society as a result.
    Where was the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonjelly View Post
    I worked in an FE college for 7 years. For almost 4 years I've worked in higher education.
    In that time I've met zero teachers on under £25k. I worked on schemes to recruit people to the police force. After training, all started on over £25k. A mate of mine is a firefighter. On well above £25k, and none of his crew are on less than that.
    All tough, intensive jobs. Deserving of a decent salary. Even so, the comparison is relatively pointless (even if it is untrue in the majority of cases). Any legal work costs money to complete. If it isn't cost effective to do the work, lawyers won't do it. Then only the rich will have access to legal advice they can pay for.

    Who is that better for? disaster capitalists and brexit loving misguided individuals who will be in for a hell of a "woe is me" moment when the full implications become clear to them.
    Police officer pay now starts at 19k
    Firefighter starts 22k
    Nurse 22k- qualified
    Teacher starts 23k
    Lawyer starst 25k-40k
    My figures are accurate. Austerity and changes to starting salaries since 2010.

    I repeat, I am not crying in my soup for lawyers.
    Remember, remember we are shit in November .

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Surely Ryanair fly there (well, Iraq but they will class it as Syria)
    that deserves recognition
    Remember, remember we are shit in November .

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredman View Post
    Even if you do believe they get paid enough - what's the answer? She doesn't get legal representation?
    tempting. If she were asking plenty of other "westernised" countries I reckon the answer would be no. She has a problem now her child has passed. The baby had the UK rights with no chance of criminal charges.
    Remember, remember we are shit in November .

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber-_-man View Post
    tempting. If she were asking plenty of other "westernised" countries I reckon the answer would be no. She has a problem now her child has passed. The baby had the UK rights with no chance of criminal charges.
    So innocent until proven guilty is out dependent on a whim of right wingers? Nice, David Lammy was entirely correct at the weekend.
    )

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber-_-man View Post
    Police officer pay now starts at 19k
    Firefighter starts 22k
    Nurse 22k- qualified
    Teacher starts 23k
    Lawyer starst 25k-40k
    My figures are accurate. Austerity and changes to starting salaries since 2010.

    I repeat, I am not crying in my soup for lawyers.
    Starts at. So zero experience. Not sure many jobs will start you at that sort of money with zero experience - I’m sure a firm of lawyers wouldn’t.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredman View Post
    So innocent until proven guilty is out dependent on a whim of right wingers? Nice, David Lammy was entirely correct at the weekend.
    You think it’s just ‘right wingers’ that don’t want her to return?

  16. #166
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    Yeah, that policeman pay stat is a bit cherry picky - https://www.policeoracle.com/pay_and...ay_scales.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penk Wolf View Post
    You think it’s just ‘right wingers’ that don’t want her to return?
    No, but I would imagine its mainly right wingers who would want to throw her in jail without a trial.
    )

  18. #168
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    Austerity isn’t really to blame here. Legal Aid has had a reputation as impossible to make pay since at least the time I was getting through law school in the early nineties.
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  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Surely Ryanair fly there (well, Iraq but they will class it as Syria)
    TWF's very own Ben Elton.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredman View Post
    No, but I would imagine its mainly right wingers who would want to throw her in jail without a trial.
    They don't want to do that, they don't want her back in the country in the first place.

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLA View Post
    Yeah, that policeman pay stat is a bit cherry picky - https://www.policeoracle.com/pay_and...ay_scales.html
    I have two students. One is going to a law firm , one is joining the police. Both have a law degree. The starting salary is the starting salary. The girl going to the law firm is getting 28k. The police officer is starting on 19 , albeit he will get an increase in his first and second years, he will be several years in before he gets 28k. Now granted, there is no requirement for a law degree to get in the police. The argument was being made that Lawyers are basically giving their time for free doing legal aid work.
    Remember, remember we are shit in November .

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber-_-man View Post
    I have two students. One is going to a law firm , one is joining the police. Both have a law degree. The starting salary is the starting salary. The girl going to the law firm is getting 28k. The police officer is starting on 19 , albeit he will get an increase in his first and second years, he will be several years in before he gets 28k. Now granted, there is no requirement for a law degree to get in the police. The argument was being made that Lawyers are basically giving their time for free doing legal aid work.
    You're comparing apples and trousers.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLA View Post
    You're comparing apples and trousers.
    So you think lawyers are underpaid?
    Remember, remember we are shit in November .

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by arklowolf View Post
    Legal Aid? Wonder which lawyers will be trousering that?
    Worth every penny. Justice at any cost, particularly if it keeps the public safe. The dilemma is when brainwashing/conditioning becomes a defence.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber-_-man View Post
    So you think lawyers are underpaid?
    I have never said that have I? I have said that legal aid work doesn’t pay. Huge difference.
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  26. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    I have never said that have I? I have said that legal aid work doesn’t pay. Huge difference.
    And I said they were better paid than a number of essential service professions but got the" comparing apples with trousers" comment, but got no response to asking a direct question other than a little nibble from yourself.

    From my experience legal aid qualification has become much tighter, however the firms I know are not soley legal aid ( just like my dentist is not solely private) so they make their money , just in other ways and do the legal aid stuff for reasons other than profit. And that segues nicely into Ms Begum. She is now high profile and this is a high profile case that will attract a lot of interest. I would have thought the lawyer taking her case would know the increase in profile taking and winning such a case would give. Its a game changer. I repeat, I do not think she will struggle for excellent representation, and think she has an excellent chance of challenging any charges.
    Remember, remember we are shit in November .

  27. #177
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    Now here we accidentally seem to trip over ground where we agree (saints preserve us - it is a miracle). Any decent profile representative that acts for Ms Begum will be doing it pro bono as a cause celebre as they can afford a massively loss making case.

    So no lawyer will be trousering money from her getting proper representation that is due to her. If anything their practices and chambers will lose money in taking the case.

    The real issue with legal aid is that practices can really only afford to offer legal aid work as a loss maker if they have good income streams from other sources. One man or two man partnerships doing a majority of their work as duty solicitor stuff are ANYTHING but get rich quick schemes. That £70 an hour pays the bills, pays the ancillary staff, pays the rent before it is delivering a salary to the lawyer. It is a bit different to comparing starting salaries for newly qualified lawyers especially as those salary averages are massively skewed by the magic circle firms who wouldn’t touch legal aid with a barge pole.
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  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    Now here we accidentally seem to trip over ground where we agree (saints preserve us - it is a miracle). Any decent profile representative that acts for Ms Begum will be doing it pro bono as a cause celebre as they can afford a massively loss making case.

    So no lawyer will be trousering money from her getting proper representation that is due to her. If anything their practices and chambers will lose money in taking the case.

    The real issue with legal aid is that practices can really only afford to offer legal aid work as a loss maker if they have good income streams from other sources. One man or two man partnerships doing a majority of their work as duty solicitor stuff are ANYTHING but get rich quick schemes. That £70 an hour pays the bills, pays the ancillary staff, pays the rent before it is delivering a salary to the lawyer. It is a bit different to comparing starting salaries for newly qualified lawyers especially as those salary averages are massively skewed by the magic circle firms who wouldn’t touch legal aid with a barge pole.
    God help the forum.
    Remember, remember we are shit in November .

  29. #179
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    x many millions!

    I hope they have all taken cover!
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  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber-_-man View Post
    And I said they were better paid than a number of essential service professions but got the" comparing apples with trousers" comment, but got no response to asking a direct question other than a little nibble from yourself.

    From my experience legal aid qualification has become much tighter, however the firms I know are not soley legal aid ( just like my dentist is not solely private) so they make their money , just in other ways and do the legal aid stuff for reasons other than profit. And that segues nicely into Ms Begum. She is now high profile and this is a high profile case that will attract a lot of interest. I would have thought the lawyer taking her case would know the increase in profile taking and winning such a case would give. Its a game changer. I repeat, I do not think she will struggle for excellent representation, and think she has an excellent chance of challenging any charges.
    Amazingly, I don't just sit here desperately waiting for your reply so we can have an argument.

    Do I think lawyers are underpaid? No. Do I think essential services should be better paid? Yes. Are you comparing like with like? No.
    Are you setting up an argument that's completely unrelated to whether this lady should get legal aid, or whether legal aid work is adequately compensated? Yes.

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