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Thread: How long has Corbyn got left?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsch Wolf View Post
    Excellent, so you agree with what I said in the first place and we've both just wasted 20 minutes
    Apparently!
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWolves View Post
    Yeah, momentum "control" labour at the moment. Some of the older labour voters I know don't recognize their party anymore
    In what way? I'm an older Labour voter and remember Labour championing nationalisation, free education (including access to universities), free health care, state support for the vulnerable in our society and workers' rights. A sort of 'for the many, not the few' type of concept.
    Cosy consensus makes for a boring forum.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Towner View Post
    Nope, where we are now is when Corbyn disappeared from the referendum discussion letting Cameron and Osborne be the face of the remain campaign. He allowed people in traditional working class northern communities to believe their life was shit because of the EU to go completely unchecked. Thursday stems back to that. Blaming the PM who won 3 thumping majorities is bizarre, while you have that attitude you will continue to be part of the problem, not the solution.
    People got left behind under Blair. They thought Labour would come to their aid but it was essentially more of the same. Working class and poorer people voted Leave on the basis that something might change. Labour needs policies to affect the lives of these people not fanny about at the edges.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templeton Peck View Post
    Working class and poorer people voted Leave on the basis that something might change.
    Oh, it will. Just not in the way they think.

    I'm in no particular mood to pander to people who doubled or even tripled down on a stupid decision in the face of all available evidence, that's no way to run a country.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber-_-man View Post
    OK me old. I have worked for the cunt. You haven't. He is more intelligent than you give credit. I do not agree with his politics but he is what Napoleon would call a lucky General. He has something that the public like and believe in. That's why he has a majority. He also has a mandate from the electorate. Its not 52/48 anymore. Remain has been stuffed. So its now up to him to deliver. If he doesnt. Vote him out. I just pray labour understands the need to provide a centrist alternative. I fear not.
    Unusually, I don't disagree with much of what you say on this thread, but just to take issue with the bit in bold. The total votes cast for parties that at least supported a second referendum was in excess of 50% so there still isn't a massive majority one way or the other in terms of Brexit. The reality is that the "remain" vote, in its various guises was split.

    Which is not to say that I don't think the Conservatives have a mandate or that there's still an argument to be had about Brexit. (Much as I think it's the single most stupid act of self harm this nation has committed in a very long time). The Tories ran a much better campaign and had a much better handle on the mood of the electorate than Labour or the Lib Dems and deserved to win.

    Though to be clear - I despise what they stand for, despise their dog whistle tactics and lies, and despise many of them as human beings.

  6. #66
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    Well said SLA.

    I don't think Jess Phillips would want the leadership tbh, though I think she'd make an excellent deputy.

    If it becomes long-bailey, we have 3 options. emigrate, invest in various disaster capitalism schemes, or blind hope.
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  7. #67
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    I'm surprised there is such strong feelings about RLB, she's been pretty low profile, how does anyone know what she is about?

    I'd be amazed if Phillips doesn't stand.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant Pyjamas View Post
    I'm surprised there is such strong feelings about RLB, she's been pretty low profile, how does anyone know what she is about?

    I'd be amazed if Phillips doesn't stand.
    She's continuity Corbyn, essentially. Unsurprisingly, she's who that branch of the party is pushing hardest.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLA View Post
    Unusually, I don't disagree with much of what you say on this thread, but just to take issue with the bit in bold. The total votes cast for parties that at least supported a second referendum was in excess of 50% so there still isn't a massive majority one way or the other in terms of Brexit. The reality is that the "remain" vote, in its various guises was split.

    Which is not to say that I don't think the Conservatives have a mandate or that there's still an argument to be had about Brexit. (Much as I think it's the single most stupid act of self harm this nation has committed in a very long time). The Tories ran a much better campaign and had a much better handle on the mood of the electorate than Labour or the Lib Dems and deserved to win.

    Though to be clear - I despise what they stand for, despise their dog whistle tactics and lies, and despise many of them as human beings.
    Fair enough. I did type my reply after a couple of bevvies! I am an ardent brexiter as you know but voted lib dem to stop the tories as I despise them. I still have concerns about brexit. I wanted a softer one , always did, but I wanted us to leave.I would have voted Labour if they had any chance of stopping the tories in my area.

    You do open up another of my pet rants and that is proportional representation. That and UBI are two areas that really need to be looked at in my view.

    Remain is dead within parliament now as the majority will back Boris' deal. It does mean that , under our voting system, brexit has a mandate.33% of those eligible didnt vote at all!

    My daughter is crestfallen about Labours hammering. She lives in rented accommodation in London. My eldest sons are fine with it. A farmer / businessman and a Company COO they are blue. My other son is a student so centre left like me. He , however is very pro EU. Boris does seem to be a lucky general and if he does dleiver 9 and its a big if lets face it Labour could find themselves so far behind that they stand no chance in 2024. It is essential they return to more centrist policies. If that means pink tories then thats what it means. I have said it before. Bring back the old SDP!
    if your path means you walk through hell then walk as if you own the place.

  10. #70
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    Presumably if there was much appetite nationally for a centrist party, the Lib Dems would have done a lot better than they did.

    And I don't think their Remain stance played much of a part in their failure. I didn't hear anyone saying "I'd vote Lib Dem if only they were pro-Brexit". They just aren't a credible alternative.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLA View Post
    Presumably if there was much appetite nationally for a centrist party, the Lib Dems would have done a lot better than they did.
    This is a false equivalence as the Lib Dems campaigned on a remain ticket and not even a second referendum which lost them a lot of voters immediately.

    The misconception is that people voted Tory because they like right wing politics, this isn't true, much like it isn't true that Labour policies are unpopular. This election was skewed by Brexit and to suggest otherwise is to put your head in the sand.

  12. #72
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    SLA You do know you answered your own statement, don't you ?
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLA View Post
    Presumably if there was much appetite nationally for a centrist party, the Lib Dems would have done a lot better than they did.

    And I don't think their Remain stance played much of a part in their failure. I didn't hear anyone saying "I'd vote Lib Dem if only they were pro-Brexit". They just aren't a credible alternative.
    The issue literally is that they were a credible alternative, to a huge amount of people.
    If you add the Lib Dem vote share to the Labour vote share there is almost exactly the same number as the Tory votes.
    The inability of those two parties (and the greens, to a smaller extent) to work together somehow are exactly the reason why they couldn't fight the Tories (especially as the Tories had their original seats unchallenged by the Brexit Party).

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    SLA You do know you answered your own statement, don't you ?
    Did I? Probably. I did drink quite a lot this weekend.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLA View Post
    Presumably if there was much appetite nationally for a centrist party, the Lib Dems would have done a lot better than they did.

    And I don't think their Remain stance played much of a part in their failure. I didn't hear anyone saying "I'd vote Lib Dem if only they were pro-Brexit". They just aren't a credible alternative.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny75 View Post
    This is a false equivalence as the Lib Dems campaigned on a remain ticket and not even a second referendum which lost them a lot of voters immediately.

    The misconception is that people voted Tory because they like right wing politics, this isn't true, much like it isn't true that Labour policies are unpopular. This election was skewed by Brexit and to suggest otherwise is to put your head in the sand.
    Yeah, definitely required the little ad hom at the end. Always helps the debate.

    I agree that Brexit makes any judgement about people's motivations in this election a bit tricky. My point is that whatever the Lib Dems' Brexit stance was, I don't think they would have been seen as a party people wanted to vote for in great numbers.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLA View Post
    Yeah, definitely required the little ad hom at the end. Always helps the debate.

    I agree that Brexit makes any judgement about people's motivations in this election a bit tricky. My point is that whatever the Lib Dems' Brexit stance was, I don't think they would have been seen as a party people wanted to vote for in great numbers.
    They never are though, they're dismissed by the print media and the broadcast media treat them as a naughty school child rather than credible opposition. This is wrong but it is up to the Lib Dems to address this.

    Until they do we have sixth form politics Labour vs the racists. Joy.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny75 View Post
    They never are though, they're dismissed by the print media and the broadcast media treat them as a naughty school child rather than credible opposition. This is wrong but it is up to the Lib Dems to address this.

    Until they do we have sixth form politics Labour vs the racists. Joy.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head there re the Lib Dems (not that Jo Swinson ever came across as convincing). They are seen as a quirky irrelevance by the media. In fact that is the big lesson Labour need to learn. It's not really about policies it's about perception and looking competent (albeit in what seems like a public school debating society version of what a serious parliament should be). Looking at the UK from Europe, the greatest single issue facing the UK currently is the growing inequality, the gap between rich and poor has become a yawning chasm. So if if it were about policies how on earth could any intelligent voter support the Tories. The right wing media and the vilification of all things to the left of UKIP won this election. Coupled with Labour's inability or reluctance to recognise this of course.

    With that in mind there has to be someone at the head of the Labour party who can speak well, dish it out in parliament when necessary and is not an obvious target for the gutter press. For me Starmer or Thornberry would fit the bill.

  19. #79
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    Does anyone watch Jonathan Pie? A lot of what I've seen of his really hits the nail on the head

    (p.s. I know he's a character)

  20. #80
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    Yep, can't argue with a lot of it, particularly his latest.



    https://youtu.be/G0nIhL4v6bY

  21. #81
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    FPTP surely kills a lot of interest in the Lib Dems from the off. They'd never got more than 10% of the vote share in my constituency I don't think so as much as I back their Brexit stance it was a vote that would have had zero impact on the outcome, though ultimately neither did my alternative choice such was the swing.
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  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant Pyjamas View Post
    Yep, can't argue with a lot of it, particularly his latest.



    https://youtu.be/G0nIhL4v6bY
    I don't know, it's pretty much a one note performance that got tired about three years ago. He (or "he", who knows where the line is) talks an awful lot of shit.
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  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsch Wolf View Post
    I don't know, it's pretty much a one note performance that got tired about three years ago. He (or "he", who knows where the line is) talks an awful lot of shit.
    To be fair, he's the only person whose really been able to explain to me why Trump won

    I watched his feminism interview this morning, which was brilliant

  24. #84
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    Pie nails it every time. Ignoring democracy isn't the best idea.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Wolf View Post
    The issue literally is that they were a credible alternative, to a huge amount of people.
    If you add the Lib Dem vote share to the Labour vote share there is almost exactly the same number as the Tory votes.
    The inability of those two parties (and the greens, to a smaller extent) to work together somehow are exactly the reason why they couldn't fight the Tories (especially as the Tories had their original seats unchallenged by the Brexit Party).
    Tbf you can't expect the Lib Dems to work with Labour as they are some way apart on policy. No reason Labour and Greens can't work together though. I'd like to see an alliance between them next time as there were plenty of seats where the margins were so tight the Greens stepping aside would have made a difference.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templeton Peck View Post
    Tbf you can't expect the Lib Dems to work with Labour as they are some way apart on policy. No reason Labour and Greens can't work together though. I'd like to see an alliance between them next time as there were plenty of seats where the margins were so tight the Greens stepping aside would have made a difference.
    So I guess labour , the greens and the liberals need to sort PRbefore the next election then. Oh , but that wont get past a huge majority.
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  27. #87
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    I think it is a bit rich to expect Greens to just step aside. They had a pact with Plaid and the Lib Dems. Labour refused to join in. Plus Labour actively campaigned against former Labour MPs standing as Liberals, such as Luciana Berger, and split the the vote to gift the Tories the seat. Unless Labour changes I cannot see another party entering into such an agreement.
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  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddingtonwolf View Post
    I think it is a bit rich to expect Greens to just step aside. They had a pact with Plaid and the Lib Dems. Labour refused to join in. Plus Labour actively campaigned against former Labour MPs standing as Liberals, such as Luciana Berger, and split the the vote to gift the Tories the seat. Unless Labour changes I cannot see another party entering into such an agreement.
    I find it incredibly arrogant that any Labour supporter should suggest that another party stand aside given the direction of travel the party is taking and the performance last week. There's now a campaign online from some Momentum members to discredit Jess Phillips by insinuating she's racist. These are the same people that are saying the Lib Dems are nothing but Tories and are quite happy to tell anybody that doesn't agree with them that they're Tory voters and aren't afraid to tell members of the Labour Party that they should go and join the Tories. That's before we get to the obviously anti-Semitic views many of these people deny there is a problem, hiding behind a spurious commons report.

    The current despicable nature of a faction of Labour Party members will see them disappear up their own arseholes shortly.

  29. #89
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    "Blair was basically a Tory" debunked, thread:

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/s...71942601248772
    #prayforJohnny75

    Tweet.

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Hullis View Post
    "Blair was basically a Tory" debunked, thread:

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/s...71942601248772
    Yes, i saw that. Very good, and needs a much larger viewing.

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