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Thread: Keir Starmer at it again..

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    I'm taking from the wording that you, the Corbyn faithful had to deduce that (unless Templeton does has ESP ?) the rest of the populous never knew his stance.
    I'm struggling to deduce that to be honest Paul?

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    I'm taking from the wording that you, the Corbyn faithful had to deduce that (unless Templeton does has ESP ?) the rest of the populous never knew his stance.
    Well the official position was remain but reform which translated for some into raving arch brexiteer.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  3. #273
    Top post earlier proslo.
    Cosy consensus makes for a boring forum.

  4. #274
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    The thing is the Tories don't have this, do they? You don't hear "you're not a pure enough Tory, fuck off, we don't want you" if one of them says they'd quite like to spend a bit more on the NHS. Probably because you hand in all morals and humanity at the door when you support them, but still.

    But Labour can't help fighting each other. I personally don't take kindly to the utter fucking shit that Maxine Peake was spewing out last week and then a Shadow Cabinet minister endorses it (she hasn't actually backtracked from that bit either, the frond Man Met prick).
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  5. #275
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    The left have always had that problem. Its why Monty Python didnt focus on the Right when they did the Peoples Front of Judea.

    For a group that sets so much store in solidarity and call each other fucking Comrade they seem incredibly fucking eager to turn on any that steps out side of narrowly defined orthodoxies.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsch Wolf View Post
    The thing is the Tories don't have this, do they? You don't hear "you're not a pure enough Tory, fuck off, we don't want you" if one of them says they'd quite like to spend a bit more on the NHS. Probably because you hand in all morals and humanity at the door when you support them, but still.

    But Labour can't help fighting each other. I personally don't take kindly to the utter fucking shit that Maxine Peake was spewing out last week and then a Shadow Cabinet minister endorses it (she hasn't actually backtracked from that bit either, the frond Man Met prick).
    That's cos the Tories are concerned solely with the acquisition of power and will say what's required to get it. They absorbed the NF vote in the early 80s by shifting right and they've absorbed the UKIP vote now. Any Tories who aren't comfortable are simply jettisoned.

    Labour is where everyone who dislikes the Tories but wants a shot at winning elections has to go. So they're accommodating a wider spectrum of views. They're also about implementing a vision rather than just gaining power so they'll be things they're not prepared to compromise on.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  7. #277
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    Do you believe what Maxine Peake said was helpful? And that RLB should have called her an "absolute diamond" while directly quoting it?

    Because I don't like people like that, but I would quite like to vote Labour again one day.
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  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsch Wolf View Post
    Do you believe what Maxine Peake said was helpful? And that RLB should have called her an "absolute diamond" while directly quoting it?

    Because I don't like people like that, but I would quite like to vote Labour again one day.
    No. I wouldn't vote Labour unconditionally which is what she seems to be suggesting. I voted LD in 5 and 10 so I'm in no position to judge.

    Equally though, Starmer has to manage all the factions in the party. Sacking RLB and keeping Reeves isn't a smart move.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  9. #279
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    I'm not interested in whataboutery.

    Specifically RLB was an idiot for retweeting that without reading it properly, then she was a moron for not deleting it and apologising, and Peake is a wanker and I want nothing to do with people who hold those kind of views.
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  10. #280
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    If Starmer wants to get elected the best thing he could do is actually expel Momentum.
    There are only two man-made objects that can be seen from space.

    1. The Great Wall of China

    2. Low Hill at Christmas

  11. #281
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    Nah, I won't have that. Momentum is not the bogeyman that it's been made out to be, at all.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by proslo View Post
    Nah, I won't have that. Momentum is not the bogeyman that it's been made out to be, at all.
    Indeed. Tabloid crap.

    The Labour right: The left is too tribal. We all need to compromise.
    Also the Labour right: Fuck off Momentum you commie pricks!
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsch Wolf View Post
    I'm not interested in whataboutery.

    Specifically RLB was an idiot for retweeting that without reading it properly, then she was a moron for not deleting it and apologising, and Peake is a wanker and I want nothing to do with people who hold those kind of views.
    You can't sack one MP for anti-semitism and keep another who praises a Nazi sympathiser. You say whataboutery I say hypocrisy. It also weakens his position.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  14. #284
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    It doesn’t tend to be the labour ‘right’ hounding people for not having pure views. Just take a look at the responses to any shadow cabinet member on twitter - it’s a cesspit, and often a misogynistic and anti-Semitic cesspit.
    )

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredman View Post
    It doesn’t tend to be the labour ‘right’ hounding people for not having pure views. Just take a look at the responses to any shadow cabinet member on twitter - it’s a cesspit, and often a misogynistic and anti-Semitic cesspit.
    The Labour right tend to attack the left for being too extreme or too stupid or anti-semitic.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  16. #286
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    Or too unelectable.
    There are only two man-made objects that can be seen from space.

    1. The Great Wall of China

    2. Low Hill at Christmas

  17. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templeton Peck View Post
    You can't sack one MP for anti-semitism and keep another who praises a Nazi sympathiser. You say whataboutery I say hypocrisy. It also weakens his position.
    We're still on the Astor thing?

    There is an enormous difference between retweeting and praising one specific contemporary interview that espouses anti-Semetic conspiracy theories, and generally praising one highly influential MP who, while being a Nazi sympathiser, is being praised for reasons entirely separate to that viewpoint- namely, being the first woman to speak in Parliament. Like it or not, Astor was a trailblazer, and the example she set was one that was vitally important to the development of Parliament as an institution- you can celebrate that, without endorsing her viewpoints. RLB, on the other hand, directly endorsed an interview featuring an unfounded slander, and refused to back down or apologise for it even after the person who gave the interview apologised.

    If Reeves had signal-boosted a specific bit of Nazism that Astor believed and spoke enthusiastically about it, that would be an equivalent. As it is, the comparison IS pure whataboutery, and fairly half-baked whataboutery to boot.
    Last edited by BGreenWolf; 30th June 2020 at 11:50 PM.

  18. #288
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    Hah, and here we are, exactly what I was talking about. But the other side!!!

    FWIW, I think it's fairly cut and dry with Reeves. Astor wasn't even the first woman to be elected as an MP - Constance Markievicz was, but of course she was the wrong kind of trailblazer... - and Astor was a controversial person, considered racist, even by the standards of the time. It's as, if not more, explicitly problematic and hypocritical than anything that happened under/to Corbyn which was considered enough for people to call for censure, resignation, or drumming out of public life. (I would also say that any suggestion that the left is especially factional is really unreflective of anything other than which factionalism is publicly visible. Other groups, behind the scenes? Hoo boy.)

    But then that's not the point, is it? The fact that this is any kind of debate at all is a sign of failure of the left, and of the wider political system, because we're once again having a ding-dong about whose racism is "worse". As long as we're stuck in this loop, we've already lost, as have different communities who get to be used as grenades to be lugged over no man's land at the other side. And believe me, there are a lot of pissed off black lifelong Labour voters right now who feel like they're being made the new scapegoats by a party which can't handle the bare minimum of being consistently anti-racist in every direction. And, with Astor, the fact that someone so clearly abhorrent can get a statue put up of them in 2019 does rather prove the point that British politics only really cares about bigotry and prejudice whenever it's politically useful.

    (Also, while I agree that RLB's ignorance over the Peake interview was unacceptable, I feel like I should point out that she didn't actually highlight the Israel comment or make any reference to it or quote it? And also she did eventually apologise, as did Peake? The chain of events was she tweeted the link, plus the line "Maxine Peake is a diamond", and the problem was the casual insertion of Israel into the list of causes of the death of George Floyd by Peake in an aside and RLB not noticing anything wrong with that. She was told to apologise and say something to the effect of "I do not agree with this misinformation about Israel", she instead put out some vague "I don't agree with everything in here" follow-up, Starmer said "nope, if you're going to play games like this, you're out" and sacked her, and then she apologised. Peake also apologised, although earlier I think. Not the most important point here, but it's strange to see people talk about it as if RLB was jumping up and down in a keffiyeh when the problem was she was too ignorant to even realise what she'd done. Bit like Corbyn and the mural.)

  19. #289
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    Reeves said she was the first woman to make a speech in Parliament, not the first to be elected. I struggle to see the equivalence between her Twitter post and that of RLB's even though I remain to be convinced that Maxine Peake's article was anti-semitic rather than anti-Zionist. She heard something which was factually inaccurate and chose to believe it because it suited her narrative. That narrative is anti Israel not anti Jew. She may be both but that's supposition.

  20. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Towner View Post
    Reeves said she was the first woman to make a speech in Parliament, not the first to be elected.
    Quite right, of course- got myself tied in knots over that one.

    Point still stands, mind.

  21. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGreenWolf View Post
    Quite right, of course- got myself tied in knots over that one.

    Point still stands, mind.
    I'm sorry but as Proslo put it you just wouldn't be defending the Reeves thing if this was happening on Corbyn's watch.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

  22. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templeton Peck View Post
    I'm sorry but as Proslo put it you just wouldn't be defending the Reeves thing if this was happening on Corbyn's watch.
    I genuinely don’t see a scenario where I’m that exercised about it, given the context. If RLB has done it, or even Corbyn himself, I still wouldn’t care, because the reason she was praised is ENTIRELY separate to her Nazi sympathies, unlike with the Peake interview’s relation to anti-Semitism.

    It would be incredibly easy to turn that around and say that you’re only interested in it as a stick to beat Starmer with, and neither of us could conceivably convince the other that that isn’t the case.

  23. #293
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    ...but the anti-semitism in Peake's interview wasn't the central point either, and RLB was praising the interview because of the stuff about how people should stay in Labour and not leave just because Corbyn isn't leader any more? Peake's comment about Israel was one line, an aside, and not central to her point. That's why it was a problem, because casually inserting Israel into stuff that they're not at the centre of is a classic way of conflating anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. It's anti-semitism through neglect of thought, or lack of care, or ignorance (however you want to put it).

    The Reeves thing is so galling because it is exactly the same. Who cares that she was the first woman to give a speech in parliament? Her main legacy is to have been a nasty anti-semite who spent most of the 30s hanging out with her rich friends in Hampstead and hoping that that nice Mr Hitler would finally sort those nasty Jews out, once and for all. Unqualified praise of her that doesn't acknowledge that bigger picture is disturbing if racism, including anti-semitism, is meant to be treated as the serious issue that many MPs including Reeves explicitly argued when Corbyn was leader. It's why so many on the left get so wound up about this - not only does anti-racism only get lip service most of the time in British politics, but anti-semitism is clearly only ever taken as seriously as it should be when it comes from the left. And it then leads to this dead-end dynamic where the left gets wound up over and over again, arguing "...but it's not just a left-wing problem, look, it's happening here and here and here and here and...", and we never get onto the substantive thing of actually trying to fix it, whether alone or (I would hope) working across the spectrum. This is what people mean when they say that anti-semitism was weaponised against the left (well, the people who aren't just blind to actual anti-semitism, and fuck me is that still a whole depressing thing too). They know we're too predictable in taking the bait like the fools we are.

  24. #294
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    “Those people who were normally Labour supporters who felt they couldn’t vote Labour? Well I’m sorry, they voted Tory as far as I’m concerned,” says Peake. “And it breaks my heart, because you know what? I didn’t like Tony Blair, but I still voted Labour because anything’s better than the Tories. There’s a lot of people who should hang their heads in shame. People going, ‘Oh, I can join the Labour Party again because Keir Starmer’s there,’ well shame on you.”

    “You know what, at the end of the day, all I want is the Tories out. I think people will get behind Starmer, won’t they? He’s a more acceptable face of the Labour Party for a lot of people who are not really left wing. But that’s fine. Whatever.

    Well I'm sorry I'm not pure enough for you, Maxine. Maybe I'll just stick with the Green Party as they seem like nice people with nice beliefs rather than utter wankers. Since when did I care about success anyway, I'm a writer.

    If you don't see that people like her are part of the problem that Labour face, you are the problem.
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  25. #295
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    Hah yeah and that too - not a great thing to be endorsing purely from the perspective of collective cabinet responsibility, Becky!!

  26. #296
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    That's the thing. She's backed down on the false Israel stuff (kind of), but unequivocally not that bit.
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  27. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templeton Peck View Post
    You can't sack one MP for anti-semitism and keep another who praises a Nazi sympathiser. You say whataboutery I say hypocrisy. It also weakens his position.
    https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry...-west-country/

    In Plymouth, Prime Minister Boris Johnson was there to see the statue on the day it was unveiled. While Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn praised Conservative Nancy Astor's legacy saying: "I'm really pleased the statue is going up".
    Given that the usual suspects arent condemning Corbyn for similar comments we can only conclude the demands for Reeves to be disciplined are based on factionalism and should, therefore, be ignored.

  28. #298
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    I believe we call that a mic drop.

  29. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visage View Post
    https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry...-west-country/



    Given that the usual suspects arent condemning Corbyn for similar comments we can only conclude the demands for Reeves to be disciplined are based on factionalism and should, therefore, be ignored.
    Corbyn and Johnson aren't in Starmer's cabinet. He's said he's made rebuilding trust with the Jewish community his number one priority.
    When asked to name her greatest achievement Thatcher replied: 'Tony Blair and New Labour.'

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