Israel-Palestine

[jd1981]

I struggle with this one; the advent of Israel as a state led to the exodus, forced and unforced, of ~700,000 Palestinians who were living within the modern borders of Israel.

It also feels a bit dissonant for a UK culture I know to be mostly secular to view either side’s claim as legitimate given both are based in ideas of religious sanctity in Jerusalem.

Not meant as having a go tbc.

Israel predates Palestine by 1,000 years wherever the Jewish population had settled post ww2 would’ve caused a problem.
The situation is far more complicated and the back drop of which it came into existence can’t be ignored either.

 

[Alan]

Israel predates Palestine by 1,000 years wherever the Jewish population had settled post ww2 would’ve caused a problem.
The situation is far more complicated and the back drop of which it came into existence can’t be ignored either.

I think I need a citation here (not trying to be an ass).

 

[jd1981]

Israelite | Definition, Tribes, & Bible | Britannica

Israelite, descendant of the Hebrew patriarch Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. In early history, Israelites were simply members of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. After the establishment of two independent Hebrew kingdoms, the 10 northern tribes constituting the northern kingdom of Israel...

www.britannica.com

 

[jd1981]

I think I need a citation here (not trying to be an ass).

Inside, Outside: Where Did the Early Israelites Come From? - The BAS Library

Before they settled in the hill country of Canaan, where did the earliest Israelites come from and what was the nature of their society? The Bible is very clear. They were pastoral nomads who came from east of the Jordan. Much of the scholarship of the last part of the 20th century, however, has […]

library.biblicalarchaeology.org

 

[jd1981]

I think I need a citation here (not trying to be an ass).

Most Read of 2021: “Israel” and “Palestine”: Where Should History Begin, and Should it Matter? - Australian Institute of International Affairs

The geographic terms “Israel” and “Palestine” have a long history and specific connotations for Jews and Arabs with respect to their competing claims to the same land. The only way forward for Jewish Israelis and Palestinian Arabs is to cease looking backwards. [...]

www.internationalaffairs.org.au

 

[prawnking]

You really know how to get folks to stop wanting to engage with you in good faith.

If you want to label our stances as "gaslighting", you're explicitly saying that our attitude isn't based in reality. But you haven't actually argued for how or why that would be the case.

Disagree with whatever, but don't sit here and pretend that those of us disagreeing with you are just making shit up to do it.

Not sure what this is all about; I'm specifically referring to TP and his comments

 

[EpsomWolf]

The arbiters of free speech, the gammony far right are absolutely raging this morning on twitter over free speech being shown on the BBC which they also hate, yesterday.
Glastonbury festival have said they were disgusted with opinions that were aired yesterday

I don’t blame them for smelling blood on this one. The BBC have boxed themselves into a right corner, Starmer doesn’t know whether to stick or twist and the police must be wondering if there coming or fucking going.

I mean it’s not exactly going to be difficult identifying and arresting those chanting along so let’s see if they are fast tracked through the courts and given robust sentences too.

Everyone is going to be arrested at this rate.

 

[Wellen Wolf]

The key phrase you recognise is… ‘one day’.
There is quite simply no comparison between an outbreak attack by caged Palestinians in the context of a one hundred year Zionist invasion.
Students of history know that sometimes ‘one day’ can be overwhelming eg Hiroshima, Columbus arriving in the Americas, over half the world’s countries being attacked in the context of one flag planting day by England/UK. Ask the indigenous population of every country in the world about invaders.
There simply is no balance or equivalence in what is going on in the Gaza Strip in terms of scale or time.
Anyone who cannot see that yet should study the history of, say, Poland including Auschwitz (I have been there) and the Warsaw Ghetto where there was similar resistance to what is going on in the Gaza Strip for the last 18 months.
Overwhelming power through money and weapons never justifies invasions and barbaric genocide.
Blind or blinkered allegiance and acceptance of this means we will have forever wars with their consequences cascading through the generations.
Aren’t some people willing to learn to live in peace in a civilised manner?

 

[jd1981]

The key phrase you recognise is… ‘one day’.
There is quite simply no comparison between an outbreak attack by caged Palestinians in the context of a one hundred year Zionist invasion.
Students of history know that sometimes ‘one day’ can be overwhelming eg Hiroshima, Columbus arriving in the Americas, over half the world’s countries being attacked in the context of one flag planting day by England/UK. Ask the indigenous population of every country in the world about invaders.
There simply is no balance or equivalence in what is going on in the Gaza Strip in terms of scale or time.
Anyone who cannot see that yet should study the history of, say, Poland including Auschwitz (I have been there) and the Warsaw Ghetto where there was similar resistance to what is going on in the Gaza Strip for the last 18 months.
Overwhelming power through money and weapons never justifies invasions and barbaric genocide.
Blind or blinkered allegiance and acceptance of this means we will have forever wars with their consequences cascading through the generations.
Aren’t some people willing to learn to live in peace in a civilised manner?

Ok what should happen to Israel?
Is October 7th the only time Hamas/Hezbollah/ Palestine carried out attacks in Israel?
Has Palestine rejected the idea of dual state existence in the past?
If you’re directing this at me then pls read that I’ve condemned Israel response and previous behaviour.
Both sides of this are bad.
Hamas who carried out the attack ideology is very simple that they wants the state of Israel to be completely removed from the face of the earth.
Israel indiscriminately attacking the West Bank and Gaza for years has been dreadful.
don’t know how many times I have to say it but I try and see things from angles.

 

[Keef]

I don’t blame them for smelling blood on this one. The BBC have boxed themselves into a right corner, Starmer doesn’t know whether to stick or twist and the police must be wondering if there coming or fucking going.

I mean it’s not exactly going to be difficult identifying and arresting those chanting along so let’s see if they are fast tracked through the courts and given robust sentences too.

Everyone is going to be arrested at this rate.

They’re not going to be arresting 4-5000 people because they were caught on camera joining in with the chants, the BBC, they’ve be told to pick a side and may now realise it’s now the wrong one, the daily mail today is misquoting what Bob Vylan said to stir up more hatred, at some point the establishment are going to have deal with the fact that Israel is a genocidal country the public can see what’s it’s doing, even if politicians can’t and the public are angry.
all the sympathy for Israel over October 7th has gone now, and it’s all down to Israel and what they’ve done since

 

[prawnking]

all the sympathy for Israel over October 7th has gone now, and it’s all down to Israel and what they’ve done since

Why is your sympathy finite? People were still sympathetic towards the Palestinian cause on 8th October 2023.

Why wouldn't you distinguish between the citizens of Israel and their military, in the same way we're told to distinguish between Hamas and the citizens of Gaza?

 

[jd1981]

They’re not going to be arresting 4-5000 people because they were caught on camera joining in with the chants, the BBC, they’ve be told to pick a side and may now realise it’s now the wrong one, the daily mail today is misquoting what Bob Vylan said to stir up more hatred, at some point the establishment are going to have deal with the fact that Israel is a genocidal country the public can see what’s it’s doing, even if politicians can’t and the public are angry.
all the sympathy for Israel over October 7th has gone now, and it’s all down to Israel and what they’ve done since

I think there’s more support for Israel than you think. Many believe that October 7th gave Israel a free pass to behave how it wants. Many can’t see the fact they’ve gone way, way too far with this.
Why the October 7th attacks were even more baffling Hamas must have known it would unleash indiscriminate fury from Israel on Palestine.

 

[Wellen Wolf]

Actions for a civilised Israeli future thus liberating themselves and others including Palestinians.

1. Get rid of Netanyahu and his ilk by electing civilised people. Priority number one is to then teach the IDF to stop being the IAF (Attack).
2. Secular Israel and Jews need to wake up and sideline Zionism and its expansionist ideology.
3. Join the IAEA.
4. Accept the rulings of the ICJ in The Hague.
5. Accept 100 years late the two state solution and withdraw the recent settlers and their military from Gaza and the West Bank.
6. Long term movement to diminish belief in a Bronze Age god and renounce their self identifying label of ´God´s Chosen People´.
7. Grow up and be more civilised towards people whose ancestors have also lived in that area for millennia.
8. Recant and pull out of Gaza and the West Bank tomorrow, stop all sanctions and border controls, and open them up to a UN peace keeping force and the media.
9. Apologise at the UN for genocide.
10. Read this link and learn that violent invasions are not the way forward.

History of Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[prawnking]

I'm not keen on these AI members tbh

 

[prawnking]

6. Long term movement to diminish belief in a Bronze Age god
9. Apologise at the UN for genocide.

Do Palestinians and their leaders have to do both of these too?

 

[jd1981]

Actions for a civilised Israeli future thus liberating themselves and others including Palestinians.

1. Get rid of Netanyahu and his ilk by electing civilised people. Priority number one is to then teach the IDF to stop being the IAF (Attack).
2. Secular Israel and Jews need to wake up and sideline Zionism and its expansionist ideology.
3. Join the IAEA.
4. Accept the rulings of the ICJ in The Hague.
5. Accept 100 years late the two state solution and withdraw the recent settlers and their military from Gaza and the West Bank.
6. Long term movement to diminish belief in a Bronze Age god and renounce their self identifying label of ´God´s Chosen People´.
7. Grow up and be more civilised towards people whose ancestors have also lived in that area for millennia.
8. Recant and pull out of Gaza and the West Bank tomorrow, stop all sanctions and border controls, and open them up to a UN peace keeping force and the media.
9. Apologise at the UN for genocide.
10. Read this link and learn that violent invasions are not the way forward.

History of Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So what concessions does Palestine have to make? If the argument is none then that list is pure dreamworld stuff. Apologies for atrocities I’m afraid Palestine isn’t sweet and innocent either so would need to do the same and grow up equally and accept Israel?
Both sides have committed terrible acts, just because you believe Palestine haven’t done as bad doesn’t make them the good guys either once you start committing indiscriminate attacks you lose the moral high ground status.
Using Wikipedia as credible reference?

 

[Del Woppio]

Do Palestinians and their leaders have to do both of these too?

You're comparing Hamas to the Israeli government. I agree, they should both be held in the same regard

 

[jd1981]

You're comparing Hamas to the Israeli government. I agree, they should both be held in the same regard

What steps has the PNA and PLO before them taken to remove Hamas and stop funding from Iran?

 

[prawnking]

You're comparing Hamas to the Israeli government. I agree, they should both be held in the same regard

If you'd have been at Glastonbury yesterday would you have just sang 'Death to the IDF', or tried to lead a second verse of 'Death to Hamas' too?

 

[Del Woppio]

What steps has the PNA and PLO before them taken to remove Hamas and stop funding from Iran?

I'd be lying if I said I understood truly the relationship between the men who held guns and murdered hundreds of people and then men who looked after the politics of running Gaza so I'm not even going to consider an answer tbh. We can all agree that Hamas are fucking savages. They're no better or worse than the IDF and Israeli government