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Keir Starmer at it again..

Deutsch Wolf

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Yeah, but to use a football analogy, when we got relegated to League One the absolute priority was to get promoted at the first opportunity. We absolutely could not get stuck there, if we did we were in for a world of trouble as a club. So Kenny Jackett was far from an ideal manager overall, in the long term he was probably not going to take us back to where we ultimately wanted to be, but as the man for that particular job he was fine. Well, more than fine. And he was approximately ten billion times better than Dean Saunders.

We absolutely cannot afford to have another Conservative Government whenever the next General Election is. Nothing else for now matters.
 

Elephant Pyjamas

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Yeah, but to use a football analogy, when we got relegated to League One the absolute priority was to get promoted at the first opportunity. We absolutely could not get stuck there, if we did we were in for a world of trouble as a club. So Kenny Jackett was far from an ideal manager overall, in the long term he was probably not going to take us back to where we ultimately wanted to be, but as the man for that particular job he was fine. Well, more than fine. And he was approximately ten billion times better than Dean Saunders.
That's fine, but is Starmer Jackett? is Starmer the man for that particular job? Are you certain he is going to win? I'm not, and i voted for him.

Also now the corrupt oaf has gone, does Starmer represent a change from what the Tories would offer?
 

Deutsch Wolf

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Well it looks likely that Liz Truss is going to be what's on offer, and she demonstrated last night that she doesn't properly understand the basic concept of inflation, so I'll say yes.

Nothing is ever a guarantee, is it. Jackett wasn't guaranteed to get us promoted. Was a fair bet to do so though.
 

Elephant Pyjamas

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Well Starmer's lead has already dropped since Boris quit, it's at around 4 points now i think? That's dismal given the last couple of years, Boris, a cost of living crisis, covid, Brexit, the vast amount of corruption and incompetence.

So a shiny new leader, the short memories that so many people in this country have, and the total lack of personality, policies and charisma that Starmer has means I think it's far from a fair bet, Starmer isn't offering anything new, and I was amazed to see the Tories thought Truss performed well last night. :ROFLMAO:
 

Deutsch Wolf

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Truss/Sunak won't be shiny and new by the time of a GE. They can't win the leadership and immediately call one, because they'd almost certainly lose. So they have to go through at least a few months of actually governing, the economic issues will all still be there, they're both nailing themselves to the stupid Brexit cross, neither of them are well liked outside of the Conservative Party (Sunak doesn't even have that any more)...isolated polling now means nothing.

I don't expect Starmer will deliver a Blair style majority, of course not. I'm sceptical whether he'll actually get an overall Labour majority and I couldn't predict what exactly he'd do as PM (I know he wouldn't be a lying, corrupt, dangerous, idle cunt like Johnson), but I'm not really that bothered. I'm not a Labour zealot, I haven't even voted for them since 2010 in any election and I'll only do it at the next GE because it turfs out Sport R Troops Anderson. That's all that matters, and I don't see anyone poised behind Starmer who'd be so much more obviously equipped to get them out of office.
 

Elephant Pyjamas

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Truss/Sunak won't be shiny and new by the time of a GE. They can't win the leadership and immediately call one, because they'd almost certainly lose. So they have to go through at least a few months of actually governing, the economic issues will all still be there, they're both nailing themselves to the stupid Brexit cross, neither of them are well liked outside of the Conservative Party (Sunak doesn't even have that any more)...isolated polling now means nothing.

I don't expect Starmer will deliver a Blair style majority, of course not. I'm sceptical whether he'll actually get an overall Labour majority and I couldn't predict what exactly he'd do as PM (I know he wouldn't be a lying, corrupt, dangerous, idle cunt like Johnson), but I'm not really that bothered. I'm not a Labour zealot, I haven't even voted for them since 2010 in any election and I'll only do it at the next GE because it turfs out Sport R Troops Anderson. That's all that matters, and I don't see anyone poised behind Starmer who'd be so much more obviously equipped to get them out of office.
Yep agree with a lot of that, particularly the bold bit, I just don't think Sunak or Truss would be the bold bit either, and that will seem like a huge step up and will aid the amnesia of the nation when the GE rolls around.

Starmer will need to offer something different, he would have beaten Boris with simply just not being Boris, but now i'm not sure what he'll offer to beat Truss or Sunak, as he seems to just align with a hell of a lot of what the Tories propose.
 

Elephant Pyjamas

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... she demonstrated last night that she doesn't properly understand the basic concept of inflation, so I'll say yes.
I don't think the majority of the population understand it either, Sunak kept banging on about "maxing out the countries credit card" too, as if the economics of the 5th (or 7th) largest economy in the world work in the same way as household budgeting. But people lap that shit up.
 

Deutsch Wolf

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Point is though if Truss wins, then actually goes through with what she's saying (increasing borrowing and introducing tax cuts concurrently) then given the current state of the economy, further inflation is absolutely inevitable. She either doesn't grasp this or pretends she doesn't, and there's a reason why only Minford agrees with her, which is like picking a team and Tim Sherwood is the only other manager in the world who also thinks it's a good idea.

If inflation does rise then it's just an empirical fact and one that directly hits voters in the pocket. She can't wriggle out of that one if that is what happens. She just looks like an idiot right now, she'd immediately prove it with these plans.
 

Johnny75

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Point is though if Truss wins, then actually goes through with what she's saying (increasing borrowing and introducing tax cuts concurrently) then given the current state of the economy, further inflation is absolutely inevitable. She either doesn't grasp this or pretends she doesn't, and there's a reason why only Minford agrees with her, which is like picking a team and Tim Sherwood is the only other manager in the world who also thinks it's a good idea.

If inflation does rise then it's just an empirical fact and one that directly hits voters in the pocket. She can't wriggle out of that one if that is what happens. She just looks like an idiot right now, she'd immediately prove it with these plans.
She really did look like a complete idiot.

The whole 'my school was shit' was jarring considering Truss went to one of the best state schools in the country. And the whole 'you can aspire to send your kids to private school' by Sunak was despicable.

Both of them saying education is shit and only private education works is disgraceful from people that have been in power for 12 years.
 

Deutsch Wolf

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Her entire education from primary school to graduating from university was under Tory governments, it's bizarre she takes this line.

She also pretends that her upbringing was in a working-class, staunchly Labour area which it wasn't.
 

Johnny75

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FWIW I don't think Starmer is the answer. To me he's too cold and lacks leadership. Nandy or Burnham would be my choice. I think both could set convincing policies back to the centre as there going to need it as the Tories rip the country apart.

I hope then we get a more moderate Tory party and dispose of this Libertarian shite.
 

Deutsch Wolf

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You might get your wish down the line. However there is no reasonable way of parachuting Andy Burnham into a safe seat (what is a safe seat now anyway, for Labour or the Tories?) and then installing him as Leader (pretty sure Starmer wouldn't just happily leave ASAP?) ahead of a GE, which *could* happen at any time once the other side have got round to picking which of Half Pint Thatcher or Instagram Thatcher is less bad.
 

lemonjelly

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Sunak may not be as brazenly corrupt as boris, but he's undoubtedly sneaky & self interested and willing to see what he can get away with. See hi wife's tax status & also their interest in acquiring us citizenship for examples.
 

Templeton Peck

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The trouble with the 'agree with the Tories and just keep yer head down' approach is that it gradually moves the conversation ever rightwards and the 'centre ground' with it. This has been happening for so long that I'm now seen as 'far left' for thinking people shouldn't make profits out of water and heating. We've also seen a similar race to the bottom with immigration to the point where we can vote Brexit and deport people to Rwanda. If we have another 2 years of Labour nodding and agreeing where will be next?
 

Elephant Pyjamas

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The trouble with the 'agree with the Tories and just keep yer head down' approach is that it gradually moves the conversation ever rightwards and the 'centre ground' with it. This has been happening for so long that I'm now seen as 'far left' for thinking people shouldn't make profits out of water and heating. We've also seen a similar race to the bottom with immigration to the point where we can vote Brexit and deport people to Rwanda. If we have another 2 years of Labour nodding and agreeing where will be next?
Yep, apparently not supporting justified striking workers will be forgotten by Thursday too.

What a fucking mess we as a country have got ourselves into.
 

proslo

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The polling breakdowns should make for pretty fearful reading for Starmer, honestly. The Labour lead isn't down to people who voted Tory in 2019 switching their votes to Labour and other parties, it's because loads and loads of those 2019 Tory voters are saying they're not going to bother voting for anyone.

It's an extremely precarious lead because it's so soft. Put aside anything to do with policy, because this is what Starmer and the Labour right are putting all their chips on: if they're very cautious, and very boring, and make absolutely no sudden moves, then they'll win by default. It didn't work for Kinnock in '92, and there's every chance it won't work here either.

It's all well and good saying that the most important thing is to beat the Tories but you can't argue that without also having to pick a strategy for achieving it. It's why that "most useless opposition ever", "they don't even want to win an election" stuff from people during the Corbyn years was so mindless - exactly as mindless as Corbynites now complaining that Starmer's not sticking rigidly to the same playbook. No shit, different politicians have different strategies, but nobody gets into this game to not win. You've got to assess each strategy on its merits, not just what you'd prefer to be the case.

My worry here is that I don't think that this strategy from Starmer (and the New Labour zombies advising him) is a particularly smart one. People want something to vote for, and I'm not just talking about the disillusioned left here. If your strategy is to stay perfectly still and wait for the other side to collapse, then that's only the illusion of playing it safe. And you open up a significant avenue for charges of lacking principle, and being slippery, which (not a coincidence) was also one of the major problems that undermined the whole New Labour project in the first place.
 

proslo

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Oh, and it's all well and good prioritising purging the left - to both entrench the right's control of the party and play to socially conservative, older voters who've drifted away to UKIP and/or the Tories over the last 20 years - but stuff like making a show out of kicking Sam Tarry out of the shadow cabinet for something as milquetoast as attending a picket is a good illustration of why they need to be smarter. The logic is painfully crude, cargo cult politics. "Kinnock and Blair made a show out of attacking the unions, so we need to do the same" - except the party's near-bankrupt because they chased away most of the paying membership post-Corbyn, and the unions are the last significant source of funding.

Congratulations, Keir, on not only giving them maximum leverage over you, but also the incentive to make use of it.
 

Elephant Pyjamas

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Oh, and it's all well and good prioritising purging the left - to both entrench the right's control of the party and play to socially conservative, older voters who've drifted away to UKIP and/or the Tories over the last 20 years - but stuff like making a show out of kicking Sam Tarry out of the shadow cabinet for something as milquetoast as attending a picket is a good illustration of why they need to be smarter. The logic is painfully crude, cargo cult politics. "Kinnock and Blair made a show out of attacking the unions, so we need to do the same" - except the party's near-bankrupt because they chased away most of the paying membership post-Corbyn, and the unions are the last significant source of funding.

Congratulations, Keir, on not only giving them maximum leverage over you, but also the incentive to make use of it.
Well you put it far, far more eloquently than I, absolutely spot on.

I have no idea what he thought he would gain from holding this position.

What type of voter is more likely to vote for him as a result of today? It's not Tories, it's certainly not traditional Labour voters (they'll be repulsed by this), and the centre folks will just stay as they are (see DW for details). All today's actions could have done is weaken his chances of election.
 
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