• Welcome, guest!

    This is a forum devoted to discussion of Wolverhampton Wanderers.
    Why not sign up and contribute? Registered members get a fully ad-free experience!

Things that make you SAD thread.

We don't have first degree murder in this country. It's just murder or manslaughter. Maybe your distinction is pre meditated? Then you have battered wives who can't take any more though
I'd imagine there is already times when this has happened and the wife has been given a lesser sentence.

This is probably why it costs so much to actually execute someone due to all the rigour. I can't remember who said it though
 
The Venebles kid had everything chucked at him in an attempt to rehabilitate, he had the best opportunity in life He was still rotten to the core and convicted of God knows what now


 
If someone shows such disregard for another life, why should their life be afforded protection.

I guess I'm just interested in people who hold such a strong conviction against and how they reconcile that with the actions of the undefendable.
Because I don’t believe in my heart that anyone has the right to take the life of another. No matter how appalling their actions. It’s just my standpoint and I am cool with people not agreeing.
 
I'd imagine there is already times when this has happened and the wife has been given a lesser sentence.

This is probably why it costs so much to actually execute someone due to all the rigour. I can't remember who said it though
There are defences. Self defence being one. Or indeed a famous case where a father came into a house to find his daughter being hideously assaulted and killed the assailant by smashing his head in with a saucepan
 
I should add that plenty of battered wives ended up in prison for murder or manslaughter for killing their abuser. As soon as they planned it, it was murder. If it was a reaction and “crime of passion” it was manslaughter
 
I'd imagine there is already times when this has happened and the wife has been given a lesser sentence.

This is probably why it costs so much to actually execute someone due to all the rigour. I can't remember who said it though
In the UK juries can actually acquit someone who they believe to be guilty of the crime. Not hard to imagine this happening in cases such as an abused wife or something similar if the death penalty was the outcome of a conviction.
 
My lecturer at University is a convicted murderer, he killed a man at 17/18 and while in prison he studied and kept going and is now one if the most highly thought of prisons researchers in the UK.

Story for anybody interested:-

Anyway, the punishment model in the UK is predicated on 4 strands:
  • Retribution
  • Deterrence
  • Incapacitation
  • Rehabilitaton
Retribution for their indiscretion is administered on them by the courts for 'us' (society) they do so to deter others from committing similar offences. By locking them up it largely incapacitates them and only then after a period of time is when - theoretically - rehabilitation occurs. This is why you have tarrifs for offences and considerations for parole are made after X years. Its important to stress this isn't automatic release. Its just deemed an appropriate time to ask the question 'is this person sufficiently rehabilitated?' if the person is deemed unfit for release thats when you start reaching the now defunct IPP's or if so sick they're adjudged beyond rehabilitation Whole Life Orders come in.

So, to reintroduce capital punishment you aren't just adding an additional punishment but drastically shifting the punishment ideology that the country currently holds, to the far end of incapacitation (ie killing them) and pushing rehabilitation out of the punishment conversation. Its then hard to argue deterrent and or retribution, on a micro level Tony doesn't think Capital Punishment is proportionate, if there isn't a sense of proportion then that can erode trust and legitimacy scale that opposition to the population and its reintroduction can potentially seriously harm the justice system.

@WolfMan wanted to reply to your point re. murdering again after release. After release all lifers are on lifetime parole so not only is this an avoidable death but it represents systemic failures in parole and probation services before and after their release. The government have butchered probation since 2010. TWF favourite Chris Grayling released Transforming Rehabilitation as Justice Secretary in 2012. Probation was partially privatised and underfunded, the previous National Probation Service was sliced up into 21 'Community Rehabilitation Companies' (read Sodexo etc) HM Inspectorate of Probation has already concluded that overworked staff weren't completing adequate risk assessments and in many cases were supervising 200 offenders instead of the maximum 60. It isn't just the latter victims its failing, released domestic abusers weren't adequately supervised plunging partners and families back into desperate situations (I dare say first time murders happened here too) there was also a 19% increase in suicides by those who should be being supervised by the NPS and CRC's, they were failing victims, staff and offenders alike. In June this year the CRC's were re-absorbed into the NPS. It remains to be seen if there will be better supervision and improvements but what you're talking about is part of the wider picture of Tory austerity. There was mass state abandonment within the justice system. Its why there was also the biggest riots in Prisons (HMP Birmingham, Swaleside, Winchester et al) since 1990 during the last ten years too.
 
Last edited:
Indeed, hardly a miserable existence (although not one I'd choose) he will live the rest of his life in moderate comfort albeit with restrictions on his liberty, whilst the victims will suffer for the rest of their lives.

He will be on a protected wing with other sex offenders and ex police. Who knows he may well be seen as low risk in a few years and be at an open prison. He will almost certainly have greater freedoms than many envisage he shoukd have or deserve.

It's the old argument of is the justice system there to punish or rehabilitate. I believe there is too much on the rehabilitation and not enough on the punishment, but I'm no expert.

Solidarity confinement is extremely miserable, even to a point where prisoners have appealed to actually be executed instead (in the US)
 
My lecturer at University is a convicted murderer, he killed a man at 17/18 and while in prison he studied and kept going and is now one if the most highly thought of prisons researchers in the UK.

Story for anybody interested:-

Anyway, the punishment model in the UK is predicated on 4 strands:
  • Retribution
  • Deterrence
  • Incapacitation
  • Rehabilitaton
Retribution for their indiscretion is administered on them by the courts for 'us' (society) they do so to deter others from committing similar offences. By locking them up it largely incapacitates them and only then after a period of time is when - theoretically - rehabilitation occurs. This is why you have tarrifs for offences and considerations for parole are made after X years. Its important to stress this isn't automatic release. Its just deemed an appropriate time to ask the question 'is this person sufficiently rehabilitated?' if the person is deemed unfit for release thats when you start reaching the now defunct IPP's or if so sick they're adjudged beyond rehabilitation Whole Life Orders come in.

So, to reintroduce capital punishment you aren't just adding an additional punishment but drastically shifting the punishment ideology that the country currently holds, to the far end of incapacitation (ie killing them) and pushing rehabilitation out of the punishment conversation. Its then hard to argue deterrent and or retribution, on a micro level Tony doesn't think Capital Punishment is proportionate, if there isn't a sense of proportion then that can erode trust and legitimacy scale that opposition to the population and its reintroduction can potentially seriously harm the justice system.

@WolfMan wanted to reply to your point re. murdering again after release. After release all lifers are on lifetime parole so not only is this an avoidable death but it represents systemic failures in parole and probation services before and after their release. The government have butchered probation since 2010. TWF favourite Chris Grayling released Transforming Rehabilitation as Justice Secretary in 2012. Probation was partially privatised and underfunded, the previous National Probation Service was sliced up into 21 'Community Rehabilitation Companies' (read Sodexo etc) HM Inspectorate of Probation has already concluded that overworked staff weren't completing adequate risk assessments and in many cases were supervising 200 offenders instead of the maximum 60. It isn't just the latter victims its failing, released domestic abusers weren't adequately supervised plunging partners and families back into desperate situations (I dare say first time murders happened here too) there was also a 19% increase in suicides by those who should be being supervised by the NPS and CRC's, they were failing victims, staff and offenders alike. In June this year the CRC's were re-absorbed into the NPS. It remains to be seen if there will be better supervision and improvements but what you're talking about is part of the wider picture of Tory austerity. There was mass state abandonment within the justice system. Its why there was also the biggest riots in Prisons (HMP Birmingham, Swaleside, Winchester et al) since 1990 during the last ten years too.

Interesting points.

I've no doubt the Tories have completely ruined the probation service like they've ruined most of everything else. But the figures I posted originally of 30 murders being commited by convicted murderers were for between 2001 and 2011, so mainly before the Tories were in power. The more recent figure of 8 murders were between 2007 - 2015, so actually less on a year on year basis albeit with a shorter sample size.

I'd agree the murders commited by murderers are avoidable deaths. But I'm not convinced even the most effective probation service would be able to prevent some murderers killing again. 15 years good behaviour is no guarantee there won't be another moment of murderous rage in the next 50.

I'd imagine society let down your lecturer in many terrible ways whilst he was a child, he was still a child when he committed his crime. It's a tragedy that he only started realising his potential after being sent to prison. There are no doubt thousands of other people in prison now who've been totally let down by society. If I had my way society would be structured in such a way that people like him would never end up prison in the first place.
 
Had a msg this morning from a mate, his missus had a minor stroke couple of days ago while they are away on a short break in N Wales. She's in Bangor hospital being monitored but they're worried she may have another. Because of covid restrictions he can't even be with her, has to just sit in the car park texting her.
They'd gone away because he is only just getting over his treatment for prostate cancer.
In the last 2 years I've had 5 mates with prostate cancer and now 2 with strokes......life is shit sometimes, make sure you enjoy every minute you can
 
That twat was handing out leaflets on the high street in my town on Wednesday.
 
Had an interview on Wednesday, got all dolled up, borrowed the wifes car(it was clean) and toddled off to Telford, a fair sized company with 100+ vehicles at various sites around the UK, was greeted by a company director in jeans and a polo shirt, fair enough I thought it's his company, can do what he likes.
You know when you get the distinct impression that this chap doesn't really want to be doing this and had pulled the short straw, questions such as "I see you were at your last employer for thirty years, do you think you were institutionalised ? " anyway did my bit and the parting shot was "we'll be in touch before the weekend to arrange references".
Not heard anything but will wait till Monday / Tuesday just in case.
 
Institutionalised?

Sounds like he's been watching Shawshank on repeat too much.
 
Back
Top