Trump

[Walshes Wolves]

Because neoliberalism is a fucking poison that is ruining the world with its race to the bottom for cheap labor.

Tariffs aren't implicitly evil, it's not like Trump has brought them back from the dead. As you rightly point out, they've been in use during modern times as much as ever. What is evil, however, is weaponizing them for political leverage at the expense of the well-being of your own constituents. And that is exactly what Trump is doing.

I agree with everything you say Alan, apart from the last sentence. When we do business in Europe with China, move European businesses, like BMW to China, it is always beneficial to the shareholders and never the constituents. A global economy is always about that. It is to facilitate big business and profit, to the detriment of workers and the poorest in society.

 

[Alan]

Of course, that is what Capitalism is, explicitly. But the so-called "middle class", more accurately the Petty Bourgeoisie, is all but gone already. These tariffs specifically aren't protecting anyone. They are extreme to the point that they are reducing the ability for the Proletariat to even be that. We already own nothing we produce, nor the tools by which we produce, and when the profit margin that can be extracted is reduced to this degree, the Bourgeoisie has less than no reason for the production to continue. They already have their billions. They don't feel this at all, and more to the point, they do not care if the Proletariat can afford to eat when there is no profit left to extract from them.

The status quo in which we live has never cared to protect laborers unless it also benefits the extractors. They will happily watch us all starve to death unless there comes a time when we understand that we should, must, be putting the extractors themselves on the menu.

Eat the fucking rich, because they won't give a fuck about us until we show them that the weight of the populus will devour them to sate the hunger they created. Until then, we'll keep starving and they won't care.

We are the means of production, and it's well past time we recognized that.

 

[prawnking]

Of course, that is what Capitalism is, explicitly. But the so-called "middle class", more accurately the Petty Bourgeoisie, is all but gone already. These tariffs specifically aren't protecting anyone. They are extreme to the point that they are reducing the ability for the Proletariat to even be that. We already own nothing we produce, nor the tools by which we produce, and when the profit margin that can be extracted is reduced to this degree, the Bourgeoisie has less than no reason for the production to continue. They already have their billions. They don't feel this at all, and more to the point, they do not care if the Proletariat can afford to eat when there is no profit left to extract from them.

The status quo in which we live has never cared to protect laborers unless it also benefits the extractors. They will happily watch us all starve to death unless there comes a time when we understand that we should, must, be putting the extractors themselves on the menu.

Eat the fucking rich, because they won't give a fuck about us until we show them that the weight of the populus will devour them to sate the hunger they created. Until then, we'll keep starving and they won't care.

We are the means of production, and it's well past time we recognized that.

Not shitting on your passion Alan, but I could have heard this stuff from young, angry kids any time over the last 30-odd years of my life.

I'm not sure how well it plays with actual working class people in either your country or mine

 

[AndyWolves]

He's not wrong though, about any of it

Until AI makes us all useless

 

[Alan]

Not shitting on your passion Alan, but I could have heard this stuff from young, angry kids any time over the last 30-odd years of my life.

I'm not sure how well it plays with actual working class people in either your country or mine

Were I to try to play that card with Americans, the explicitly Marxist bent would obviously have to altered.

 

[prawnking]

I don't need a slew of 19th Century phrases to tell me the rich and powerful are cunts. Same as it ever was.

If you're specifically talking about Marxist theory though It's surely just vanity unless you live it, like Christianity?

If you're leaning into the hard left as being the best thing for the world, how many of the multiple advocates on here actually live any of it? I bet most of you own property, for a start.

 

[Alan]

Yes, as everyone knows, the first step to fighting Capitalism is to become homeless.

Be real.

 

[prawnking]

I am, you're the one talking about 'eating the rich' and 'the proletariat'.

There's some middle ground between owning property and being homeless btw, I grew up in decent enough social housing.

If your stated aim is to 'fight capitalism' and you're throwing Marx about then I'm not sure owning property should be on your checklist

 

[YoungWolf]

I don't need a slew of 19th Century phrases to tell me the rich and powerful are cunts. Same as it ever was.

If you're specifically talking about Marxist theory though It's surely just vanity unless you live it, like Christianity?

If you're leaning into the hard left as being the best thing for the world, how many of the multiple advocates on here actually live any of it? I bet most of you own property, for a start.

Be good if the “centre” ever presented any ideas that weren’t just watered down versions of the current shitshow though.

 

[sycophantia]

I think social housing is one of the most disappointing aspects of my life time.
As with many others I was brought up on council estate which while not perfect was a safe and happy environment.
Dunno what the figures are regarding social housing now compared to 50 years ago.
By social housing I don't mean private renting but council houses which were well built and affordable.

 

[prawnking]

Be good if the “centre” ever presented any ideas that weren’t just watered down versions of the current shitshow though.

Not sure what the 'centre' has to do with this. The 'centre' aren't the ones burning with black and white, complete conviction and Star Wars morality, in my experience. There's not a single hard left forumite on here who doesn't think that their way of doing things would save the world!

It's surely only right that those views should be investigated robustly if they're to be taken seriously, and not just treated as vanity driven soundbites?

That used to be what politics meant. You drill into ideas and fight for a coherent worldview, and accept when you don't have all the answers too

 

[Alan]

I am, you're the one talking about 'eating the rich' and 'the proletariat'.

There's some middle ground between owning property and being homeless btw, I grew up in decent enough social housing.

If your stated aim is to 'fight capitalism' and you're throwing Marx about then I'm not sure owning property should be on your checklist

Marx had a lot of exceptional ideas about the state of socioeconomic class in society. Whether or not I agree with his idea of the end state (Communism) doesn’t change that I think his read on the relationship between the Bourgeoisie and Proletariat is damn near unassailable.

I’m no Communist, I am a Socialist, but that does not mean there were no useful tools in Marx’s arsenal.

This idea that hard leftists must completely reject the current system of power before that system has been dismantled is both an implicit backing of the status quo and an explicit commitment to the black/white dynamic you’re purporting to be against.

You cannot at once fight structural power whilst completely removing yourself from that structure. You cannot fight what Capital has become in our world by divesting yourself of all Capital, because then the structure has no need to fear you, because the locus of power remains unchanged whether or not you choose to engage with it.

 

[Alan]

Be good if the “centre” ever presented any ideas that weren’t just watered down versions of the current shitshow though.

Indeed, it’s why I can’t fuck with our Dems.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Be good if the “centre” ever presented any ideas that weren’t just watered down versions of the current shitshow though.

They don't have any ideas, they just criticise and patronise the left and right.

 

[prawnking]

They don't have any ideas, they just criticise and patronise the left and right.

I'm of the left and I don't feel criticised or patronised by centrists. They're just a bit ineffective in the current political climate, and on to a loser as extremism on both sides flourishes

 

[prawnking]

Marx had a lot of exceptional ideas about the state of socioeconomic class in society. Whether or not I agree with his idea of the end state (Communism) doesn’t change that I think his read on the relationship between the Bourgeoisie and Proletariat is damn near unassailable.

I’m no Communist, I am a Socialist, but that does not mean there were no useful tools in Marx’s arsenal.

This idea that hard leftists must completely reject the current system of power before that system has been dismantled is both an implicit backing of the status quo and an explicit commitment to the black/white dynamic you’re purporting to be against.

You cannot at once fight structural power whilst completely removing yourself from that structure. You cannot fight what Capital has become in our world by divesting yourself of all Capital, because then the structure has no need to fear you, because the locus of power remains unchanged whether or not you choose to engage with it.

Sounds a lot like 'do as I say, not as I do'.

What's your ultimate goal then? End to all private ownership? You're fine with private home ownership though? How does all that tally with pretty open Marxist demagoguery? How do you destroy (as you've said you want to) the current system while benefiting from and contributing to it?

What are you sacrificing for your socialism?

 

[Walshes Wolves]

You have to ask yourselves, how did the US and Europe take their eyes off the ball?

The unexpected knock-on effect of Trump's minerals deal

The president once derided attempts to develop new green technology as a "green new scam" - but his deal could help boost the US's potential in the sector

www.bbc.com

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I'm of the left and I don't feel criticised or patronised by centrists. They're just a bit ineffective in the current political climate, and on to a loser as extremism on both sides flourishes

What aspects of you do you consider to be left?

 

[prawnking]

- Strong working class origins and role model (father an immigrant socialist, union man and shop steward most of his life)
- Belief in progress, internationalism, secularism, community, equality and class consciousness
- Belief in the NHS and its socialist intentions
- Belief in public ownership of utilities and transport where possible
- Pro-culture over rapacious capitalism

 

[Alan]

Sounds a lot like 'do as I say, not as I do'.

What's your ultimate goal then? End to all private ownership? You're fine with private home ownership though? How does all that tally with pretty open Marxist demagoguery? How do you destroy (as you've said you want to) the current system while benefiting from and contributing to it?

What are you sacrificing for your socialism?

An individual sacrifice is inherently not socialism. Socialism is a communal effort by its very nature.

What do I sacrifice? My mental health, my physical health, the well-being of those around me. I sacrifice the value of my labor and the ownership of what I produce. I sacrifice a meaningful life so I can fucking eat and keep a roof over my head.

Don’t tell me you’re not shitting on my position whilst undoing your own belt.