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Wolves 1 - Nottingham Forest 0 - another step in the path to redemptio verdict thread

Having looked again at the incident in question, Mark is right that play had gone on long enough for the ref not to bring the play back. He's played the advantage because he thinks that Wolves will get an opportunity to have a shot on goal and that is what happened. If the ball broke to Bod and he immediately had a shot that went into row Z then I'm sure that he can still award the free kick.

The ref was also correct, in the current rules, that once he has played the advantage, that he has to wait until the ball goes out of play. A fairer rule would be that the ref, as soon as the ball is in the keepers arms, blows his whistle and stops play to punish the player for the offence and sends him off. He then restarts play with an uncontested drop ball to be given back to the keeper. He can do it for an injury so why not for a sending off?
 
It's going to vary case to case isn't it?

Like last night Wolves could've very easily scored from the advantage, player gets sent off immediately afterward, everything is coming up in Wolves' favour, alternatively you give the freekick and send the bloke off but Wolves take a $#@! freekick that goes straight out and everyone whinges, that's potentially offset by more chances that could be created with a man advantage but equally you could never make another chance again all game. In Forest's favour they got to squeeze a bit more time out of their player before he was sent packing, he could've helped prevent another goal against or created one going the other way before play has stopped so then they get an unfair advantage as a result of Wolves having the original advantage of playing on, no-one would want to see that outcome. What if you played advantage and a Wolves player committed a bad challenge which resulted in a red card for them, perhaps in retaliation?

In general, when used properly, the advantage rule is a positive but I think when a sending off is included it can create more problems, no-one knows what is going to unfold during the advantage whereas the sending off is a certainty so I see no issue with awarding that decision.

yep, so for me it's just a case of following the principle and then other things that arise are dealt with as they arise. principle being, if the advantage rule makes sense in a yellow card situation, it'll make sense in a red card situation. the player due to be sent off should be sent off asap. whilst he's on the pitch he's entitled to play, but i'd agree (again) with sniffer, ref should have discretion to stop the game, send the guy off and then restart as appropriate. uncontested drop ball is fine.
 
yep, so for me it's just a case of following the principle and then other things that arise are dealt with as they arise. principle being, if the advantage rule makes sense in a yellow card situation, it'll make sense in a red card situation. the player due to be sent off should be sent off asap. whilst he's on the pitch he's entitled to play, but i'd agree (again) with sniffer, ref should have discretion to stop the game, send the guy off and then restart as appropriate. uncontested drop ball is fine.

I can't agree with that part, if the player is only receiving a yellow then there's nothing to stop them competing in the rest of the game but if a player is receiving their second yellow or a straight red that's obviously the end for them, so the latter should be dealt with more urgently than the former, in my opinion, the longer you allow the game to continue the more chance of the guy who should be off interfering gaining an advantage whereas it makes no difference if a player is booked or unbooked really.
 
I'm referring to the advantage principle only in comparing red to yellow - i.e. dont prevent advantage from applying as it would in a yellow card situation. the offending player should be sent off asap and in my view by giving the ref power to stop the game to do that once he's decided the advantage is over.
 
A bit simplistic but a solution could be that the ref plays advantage, attacker has the shot saved by the keeper. He immediately blows up and issues the 2nd yellow/red card and restarts with a drop ball and allows the keeper to continue the game from the point he made the save but the laws of the game aren't meant to be simple!
 
I think in the sending off situation it's just a lot simpler to remove the guilty party from the field as soon as possible, there are going to be plenty of situations where an advantage could be allowed with a suitable means of stopping play in the pipeline where the sending off can be actioned but there are just as many situations where either the play can't be stopped cleanly or the offending player has opportunity to be involved after the intial offence. There are already plenty of times where advantages are allowed to continue as it is so it's easy enough to accept that with a freekick as compensation, there'd be uproar if a player was able to have a big influence in a game in the intermediary period between committing the offence and having the card issued if play was allowed to continue.
 
I enjoyed the game last night. Shame Costa wasn't starting otherwise I was looking forward to the game. I think the loss of Costa was felt by Marshall and Cav more than anybody else as they really missed the outlet on the left and whilst others have said Weimann was great

The goal is a great piece of play from Lonergan to Dangerous to Doherty to Weimann and then a tap in for Dicko, fast incisive and above all clinical. But....it all started with an abysmal corner from Marshall. Marshall's corner was cleared straight to Vaughn (I think) who passes to Brerton and Cav tracking back makes a cracking tackle/ interception only for Lonergan to tackle Cav, the bellend leaving Brerton a tap-in only to find Super-Coady flinging his size ten in the way (I still think he was trying to control it).

We played some lovely stuff in patches and when we have possession we are really good with it, incisive, fast and with real purpose. Cav was at the heart of most of it but a tip of the hat to Dave Edwards whose forward passing was in the most part brilliant (yes I know, Dave Edwards), even Doherty was playing some good passes short and long. Overal our attacking play was very good to watch albeit with missing Costa's obvious flair and threat and Weimann's running through the middle rather than out wide. Defensively we are still very indifferent. Ball in the opposition defensive third we pressed very well, as soon as it goes into midfield we sit off and drop deep for the counter. It doesn't really work and the two systems are at odds with one another. Individually the players all know what they are doing now and look a coherent team which is the first time I've seen it since Stoke.

I thought Forest huffed and puffed and neither Forest wide men troubled two of the worst defensive full backs in the division. On the whole they looked like Reading did when they came to our place early in the season but I was impressed with Asombalonga's work rate and possession and he looked a threat on the ball, they just didn't get him in the right places to do much damage. He would be a handful in our team up front and he looks over his injuries right now.

Lonergan - A mixed bag, pulled off some excellent saves but his command of his area, defenders and general decision making is pretty abysmal. He tries though and you can't fault that. 7 (+1 just for that save at the end)

Coady - A willing, running, athletic player who is only surely a right back. His delivery was good from deep and his passing was OK, defending he got caught a few times but he's actually reading the game very well and his on pitch intelligence is much better in this position rather than midfield. He still can't trap a ball and his touch in general is like a man who has had his instep replaced by some kind of football repellant. 7 (+1 for that save too)

Batth - This is the player everybody likes to sing about, headed it, kicked it and won headers. Looked commanding and fitter than I've seen him i a long time. Him and Hause still don't have a great understanding though and he needs to work on his communication. I don't think he's the leader in the back line we are looking for. Dealt with Asombalonga in the main really well, only getting turned once in the whole game. Also played two absolutely inch perfect passes to Dicko on an angle and to the players feet (we'll gloss over the odd hoof). 8

Hause - Top class centre half in the John Terry mould. Needs to work on his comms too but does everything you want a top player in this division to do and looks more agile as the season is going on. Almost got a nose bleed when he found himself striding through the Forest team with only on man to beat he saw the glory.... and almost passed it straight out with two very good options. I wanted him to round Mills (I think) and stride purposefully toward goal, alas this didn't happen. 8

Doherty - Going forward he was excellent if a little lackadaisical. Still looks like he needs a slap to wake himself up (Is this OK to say now?) and sometimes he looks like he's planning his next curry photo opportunity rather than concentrating on a game of football. 6

Evans - Not his game tonight, almost everything he tried going forward didn't work for him but kudos for keep trying. About as mobile as a bus with about the same speed, however this hasn't done Xabi Alonso any harm and if he can improve his accuracy and decision making he will be a very good player in our midfield. 5

Edwards - Please don't stop reading...Dave Edwards was excellent, he pressed at the right time, his passing was in the main excellent and he played a Captains performance. Yes he was even creative wit the ball at his feet too. Got booked for a very naughty tackle but I kind of liked that and fair play he had a very good game tonight. 8

Weimann - Worked incredibly hard, pressed, defended and tackled like he was playing for a move and he deserved one on this performance. He's not a wide man and I'd have liked to see this kind of performance in a forward role as he would be tearing centre backs like Mills and Fox apart for 90 minutes. His passing was good, he hasn't got much lair and I don't think he possesses that sheer fear factor full backs have when facing a Costa. 8

Cavaliero - Sublime in patches and technically miles better than anything in this team bar Costa. Got kicked to ribbons by a fairly dirty Forest team but stil had ability to beat players and put crosses in. His awareness of the goal os very good but his decision making sometimes lets him down but I think that will be much better next year. No more messing around with him, he's a 10 that floats around and at his best when playing with equally good players like Marshall and Costa. 8

Marshall - Like Evans nothing really worked for him tonight, his set pieces were in the main very poor but you could see what they were trying to achieve in crowding the young Forest 'keeper and putting him under pressure. Unfortunately his delivery never actually did any of that. On the ball he's excellent, has that lovely languid style of the kid in the playground who you couldn't get the ball off and when he gets his passing right it's incisive and purposeful. 6

Dicko - A goal for Dicko and I am pleased for him, made some very good near post runs and also looked to strike on goal when he could. But something isn't right with Nouha, he isn't as mobile, strong or purposeful as he was and he just isn't the same threat off the shoulder or deep. A shame for him as a player but I think we are coming to the end with him. 7 (for sheer sentimentality).

Saiss - I like him as a player, a beast of a man with the touch of a velvet glove. Looked better than Dave in the centre of midfield and Evans seemed to get more out of him playing with him rather than Dave. Played some excellent balls as well as steaming into a couple of challenges. Played a magnificent ball to Gibbs-White too. 7

Gibbs-White - Looks a really good player and was equally as good centrally as he was out wide, has pace, touch, technique and a directness people love to watch. Upended in a professional foul but recovered well. A very good cameo and a class above Enobokhare at the moment. 7

Bodvarsson - Oh dear Jon Dadi, this was a shocker. His decision making was beyond abysmal and whilst you can't fault his work rate he is just trying too hard right now and making bad decision is costing us more goals. 4

Lambert - Got his tactics spot on. 8.

Referee - missed Brerton catching the ball twice! The penalty decision for Dicko could have gone either way and his linesman bottled that more than he did but his general decision making was indifferent. 5

I enjoy tactical football and so I enjoyed the game, might not have been for everybody though.
 
Good stuff. As long as he isn't just pressing. Passing sounds an improvement lately. But if things keep improving and we sign some players, I'd be happy with him on the bench.

God I bet that hurt you to say that didn't it ?? :)
 
God I bet that hurt you to say that didn't it ?? :)

It has destroyed me :devilsmile:

It was a resounding good evening for Dave by the sounds of it.
 
Work rate, but also sensible use of the ball, so short passes but ones that got us moving. In the past he's only gone back or sideways, but the commentators were very positive.

I think there is a deliberate tactic by Lambert where we make shorter but more frequent passes through the team. As I mentioned the full backs aren't trying to cross now, in fact they allow the front 4 to create and finish chances.
I thought Edwards was ok, rather than brilliant. Definitely more positive than negative though. If he has a weakness, it is technical ability. We're playing to his strengths by making very short passes.
 
The big issue from tonight - The sending off.

Can Frank or other refs clear this up. It was my understanding that if a ref is going to send a player off, the game is stopped.

So we had Gibbs taken out with a horrible challenge but the ball fell to Bod and advantage played...he should have passed, didn't and an easy save for the keeper. Forest counter and win a corner (should have been a free kick to us for a foul on Coady). So first break in play since the foul. Ref yellow cards the player, his 2nd and off he goes.

Now I know we all would have gone ape if the ref had stopped after the foul but it seems odd that a situation could have happened where a player who was about to be sent off could have gone up the other end and scored.

So by the rule book, did the ref do that situation correctly?

The referee should have awarded Wolves a free kick and sent off the Nottingham Forest player. The advantage he played would have been fine if he was not cautioning a player. But the problem the referee created for himself was that there was a player on the pitch who could have a vital bearing on the game, yet as soon as the ball was "dead" he intended sending that player off. It was a recipe for disaster, and I would be very surprised the assessor did not make mention of this.
 
I have no time at all for Dave Edwards and feel he takes away far more than he gives but last night was one of his better games this season. He played for the team rather than himself and his use of the ball was much better than normal, keeping it simple and moving it forward with accuracy. Add the work ethics of himself and Weimann making you understand a good performance can be built on more basic things other than silky skills and technical ability.
 
A good win.

Forest were shit. Played shit tippy tippy football which will give the impression they dominated possession but if they want to dominate in their own half with vanity passes let em get on with it. Assombolonga made a chance for himself in the first half and the only other effort they made was a half volley which got closer to the corner flag. They could do with a 'Rotherham performance' instead of fannying about. We had a couple of decent chances in the first, Cav put in a wicked cross their defender nearly put in and Dicko should've scored his chance he put narrowly wide and was unlucky not to win a penalty imo.

Second half was similar but how we were talking about Dicko after Newcastle can now be said of Bod. Shooting at every opportunity and really poor decision making when he had Weimann on to wrap it up and shot tamely down the keepers throat. Forests breakaway was good football but think Lonergan hesitated and lead to us nearly conceding but for Coadys terrific block. Brilliant break from us for the goal. As an aside, I was disappointed Sky edited it as it looks like two entirely different passages of play rather than one. For the last 10 mins we largely battled for the points aside from the Bod incident above but showed good character. Did anybody else see Saiss clatter Clough late on? Very late, very naughty.

Ratings:

Lonergan - Can't take anything away from the two saves he made in the second half but his distribution is simply appalling. It's staggering he looks to have never been coached on it. 6.5

Coady - Had a decent game, brilliant clearance. Isn't brilliant forwardly but assibsted his winger and tried. Steady defensively. 6.5
Batth - Coped with Assombolonga fairly well. Got done by him for the first half opportunity but that aside kicked and headed everything. I don't go often but have been to Fulham and last night recently and there is a marked improvement with him trying to pass it to Hause or Evans rather than automatically going long. 6.5
Hause - Defensively sound bar the slip in the lead up to their big chance (not a dig) but good crisp passing from him and forrayed forward on one occasion with the ball but played the wrong pass which would've seen us 1 on 1 on goal. 7
Doherty - A great pass to Weimann in the lead up to our goal and a decent cross for Dicko's other big chance in the first half. Defensively he still switches off and gifted possession in the first half at least once. 6.5

Marshall - A decent free kick in the second and a handy outlet with generally good delivery. Been impressed with him in both games I've seen him. 7
Evans - Admittedly I don't go often but it seems Evans is a better option than Price and Saville but still short of where we'd like to be. He'll be fine for the rest of the season, need to be convinced of long term. 6
Edwards - did well, he was suited to them playing but not being comfortable with tippy tappy shite and caused a lot of mistakes and dispossessions with his harrying. 7
Weimann - a workhorse. Didn't stop running all night caused mistakes but also has some class about him. Great pass for the winner and one speculative curling effort wide. I remember him chasing down his fullback on the BW side the centre half, goalie and full back on the opposite side before a soft free kick was awarded. 7
Cavaleiro - looked to make things happen but it was evident he was doubled up on at times with Costa missing. Tantalising cross in the first half for the near OG. Always good in possession except when he was 'done' by the corner flag :icon_lol: 7

Dicko - as others have said, he just doesn't seem as robust anymore. If the Dicko of 14/15 played last night with them fannying about with short goalkicks and the rest he'd have capitalised on something but it was others who were getting into those battles. Delighted he scored and it obviously really means something to him but if he doesn't come back strongly in/after pre season it may be time to cut him loose. A shame. 6

Subs:

Saiss - sured things up somewhat when they started lobbing the kitchen sink at us and made one brilliant pass to MGW, left his mark on Clough which the referee had his back turned to. A certain yellow. 6
MGW - Looks a very skilful lad. Had the beating of Fox and the second yellow was more than justified. Hopefully see more of him now we're pretty much safe. 6.5
JDB - Deary me. How many of us spoke about Dicko after Newcastle is how JDB is playing now. Chronic decision making, shooting from anywhere detrimental to the team. Could've wrapped it up had he passed to Weimann late on. 3
 
I have no time at all for Dave Edwards and feel he takes away far more than he gives but last night was one of his better games this season. He played for the team rather than himself and his use of the ball was much better than normal, keeping it simple and moving it forward with accuracy. Add the work ethics of himself and Weimann making you understand a good performance can be built on other more basic things other than silky skills and technical ability.

I would say it has to be built on both. Look at Leicester with Mahrez and Kante and now Chelsea with Hazard and Kante. Wanyama and Eriksen/ Alli at Spurs are the other prime example and you can see why modern managers have a combination of both. If Wolves can get Edwards playing as he did last night in every game then great (it is impossible I know) but it is more likely we need another player like Kante/ Wanyama to compliment Evans Saiss ability on the ball and release players like Marshall, Cav and Costa to do their thing.
 
Cavaleiro - looked to make things happen but it was evident he was doubled up on at times with Costa missing. Tantalising cross in the first half for the near OG. Always good in possession except when he was 'done' by the corner flag :icon_lol: 7

That was hilarious, I have no idea how he managed to catch himself in the plums from trying to step around the corner flag.
 
I haven't been at a game since Rotherham, but it seems only fair to say well done to Lambert and the team. I was adamant after that game we were going down, I was wrong and I'm delighted.

As for Warburton, coming into a club with less than two months of the season left and trying to instill a passing out from the back philosophy whilst in a relegation battle and presumably having players with fragile confidence seems to me to be brave, stupid or deluded.
 
As for Warburton, coming into a club with less than two months of the season left and trying to instill a passing out from the back philosophy whilst in a relegation battle and presumably having players with fragile confidence seems to me to be brave, stupid or deluded.

I think Forest will be fine, on another day they score those two we cleared off the line and win the game. If they can get the ball into their midfield often enough with Vaughan and Osborn they will carve out opportunities, I think they will be decent next season but they caught us in a rich vein of form and a team with as potent a front 4 as I've seen in this division.
 
I would say it has to be built on both. Look at Leicester with Mahrez and Kante and now Chelsea with Hazard and Kante. Wanyama and Eriksen/ Alli at Spurs are the other prime example and you can see why modern managers have a combination of both. If Wolves can get Edwards playing as he did last night in every game then great (it is impossible I know) but it is more likely we need another player like Kante/ Wanyama to compliment Evans Saiss ability on the ball and release players like Marshall, Cav and Costa to do their thing.

Agree with you, I think we can see with Mousa Dembele at Spurs how the coach has helped make the player a lot fitter to enable a higher work ethic coupled with his magnificent technical ability. Making Dembele one of the players of the season.
 
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