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Wolves underperform at Molineux against teams at the lower end -discuss

As Penk has eloquently pointed out you haven't established the form guide. You also haven't established:

Where Wolves were in the table
Wolves form at the time
Where the opposition were at the time of playing them
The opposition form at the time

That would give you a basis to start a discussion with. To get a true representation you have to do the same with the rest of the top 8 teams.

That doesn't even include, players used, injuries, management changes or any other variables. It is why your pattern is utter bollocks. But you carry on and keep believing.
 
Your own breakdown there shows seven seasons' worth of results and we lost three of the 28 games in question.

That's hardly indicative of a team that regularly slips up against the weaker opposition, as per your original hypothesis. We didn't have the very best record in most cases because we were nowhere near being the best team in the division.
 
As Penk has eloquently pointed out you haven't established the form guide. You also haven't established:

Where Wolves were in the table
Wolves form at the time
Where the opposition were at the time of playing them
The opposition form at the time

That would give you a basis to start a discussion with. To get a true representation you have to do the same with the rest of the top 8 teams.

That doesn't even include, players used, injuries, management changes or any other variables. It is why your pattern is utter bollocks. But you carry on and keep believing.



First Post

All DW and I played a game of stat tennis on the build up thread and I found it really interesting but it wasnt the right thread. Basically I believe that as a top half side we have consistently underperformed in the championship against teams from the bottom four when we are at home. I am compiling some data to support this today and will post it with the theories behind it here later for anyone who is interested.

Proved, as above .... sorry you think its bollocks. Your blind faith seems to cloud the evidence, I have compiled the results in whatever format you asked and you choose not to see it. Your call. Still waiting for any evidence to disprove this, but I reckon we should raw a line now. I feel passionately that I have shown something and you feel that I dont. Others can agree with either point of view its their call and right to reply.

Your own breakdown there shows seven seasons' worth of results and we lost three of the 28 games in question.

That's hardly indicative of a team that regularly slips up against the weaker opposition, as per your original hypothesis. We didn't have the very best record in most cases because we were nowhere near being the best team in the division.

So I looked at the results I showed in the above example where the top 8 played the bottom four. I looked at the points against the bottom four for each position.

1 21 3 4 points 66
2 15 10 3 points 55
3 22 4 2 points 70
4 17 6 5 points 57
5 18 10 0 Points 64
6. 18 7 3 points 61
7 16 10 2 points 58
8 17 10 1 points 61

The aggregate is the 7 seasons, the teams who finished in those positions results, including ours added together. That means over 7 seasons whoever finished third took 70 points off the four teams who finished in the bottom 4 aggregated, the seventh placed team took 58 points off the bottom four and so on . That gives a record by all sides of w 146 Drawn 60 Lost 20. Divide each by 7 seasons 20.8 wins (20) 8.57 draws (8) 2.8 Defeats (2) that gives an average record(rounding down) of 20 wins, 8 draws and 2 defeats 68 points.

Our form in those eight seasons is 15-10 3 points 55. That shows a deficit in every position bar 1 and that is only equal.Finishing positions in this time were 1 x first 1 x 3rd 2 x 5th 2 x 7th 1 x 9th. Should have done better against bottom 4 at home as other teams consistently did. Thats all folks. Even my cyberchip is starting to get fried. Its been fun.... each to their own.... there are lies damn lies and football statistics.

Now even if you dont agree please can you acknowldge the effort I have put in here Jeez !
 
No faith needed on my part as you STILL haven't proved your theory as your data earlier showed where Wolves v opposition were at the time of playing but not the equivalent fixtures of the top 8 at the time of playing.

Your evidence is nothing but fitting data into your own agenda. Once you've provided data that is comparable (and not the 3 losses) and therefore significant the data can be looked at deeper. Until then I'll leave you with your theory.
 
You're picking a sample size which is overly affected by a single result. So you have us down as the "worst" team in a particular season because we got 7 points as opposed to 8 (getting 7 or 8 points from four games is neither great nor awful). In the original statistics that I posted, I picked the bottom six as opposed to four, it gets far less skewed by a single anomaly. You could pick the bottom eight if you wanted to be truly comprehensive about it, ie the bottom third of the division. From a purely statistical point of view, if you knew nothing about football, then that is the kind of sample size you would select. It means you have a broad enough base to work from as to eliminate randomly out of kilter individual results that owe nothing to rhyme nor reason, and would also dilute the influence of any absolutely rank awful team who finished miles adrift of everyone and got beaten every single week, while still ensuring that you were selecting teams that a top half team "should" fare well against.

Also for seasons where we finished for example, 8th, you should be comparing our record with the three teams directly above and below us, not teams who finished absolutely legions in front of us because it's a pointless comparison. In any case, and at the risk of repeating myself, it is far more valuable to compare Wolves' record against the bottom teams with Wolves' own form against everyone else, rather than data taken from other teams which bears no reflection on what issues we may or may not have.

An additional problem you have is that the method you've chosen tells us nothing about the relative strength or weakness of the division - for example last year was a league where almost all of the teams were extremely closely matched and everyone tended to beat everyone (eg us beating Hull under Saunders, Peterborough doing the double over Cardiff), with the points spread between say, 7th and 21st being far narrower than normal. In 2008/9 all of us, Reading and Birmingham were averaging two points a game or better in the first half of the season and the gap between top and bottom at that stage was massive in comparison. This really has to be factored in somewhere if you want any meaningful results. I can tell you for a fact that the division was much stronger at the top in 2006/7 than it was in 2007/8, for example.

Irrespective of which have you not shown that our record since 2006 - including this season, but discounting the PL years and last season's aberration - is actually rather good? So essentially it's only Wolves teams from the increasingly more distant annals of history are the ones that vaguely support your theory. And at a push all you're showing is that we have a record that is neither massively better nor massively worse than you would expect from a mostly middling, mostly flattering to deceive team. I've never claimed our record to be anything other than that, it's the fallacy that we constantly slip up in these games that is wrong. You would expect to get much more than three defeats out of 28 if your hypothesis were correct. In fact your original assertion is based on the assumption that an away win has a probability of 25% - Wolves aren't even losing 12.5% of their games against the bottom four. So even if you said it is twice as unlikely that an away win will happen for the bottom four (which is very, very sketchy ground), we're still doing better than "par". And as Penk and Johnny have said, ALL of this discounts form which is perhaps the most important aspect when predicting the likelihood of a result! There are just so many variables that unless you have something truly startling - if, for example, we had lost a dozen of those 28 games - you're deciding what your conclusion is and then picking facts to suit it rather than the other way round.

While I appreciate the effort you've gone to, sadly there's little evidence to back up what you're saying. It really is just one of those fatalistic football fan things. I guarantee you that the next time an ex-player scores against us someone will pipe up with how it was "bound to happen". Of course Marlon Harewood, Mark Connolly, Dan Jones, Darren Ward, Ashley Hemmings, Neill Collins and Matt Hill have all appeared against Wolves this season in the league and have registered a grand total of 0 goals. It doesn't happen all that often in reality. It does happen periodically because the churn of players between clubs is absolutely huge. Just in pure probability terms, if you bring in on average eight players a season and ship out eight players a season, and sign another four on a temporary basis who you later send back to their parent club, and the majority of those players continue to play at a similar level to Wolves for the bulk of their career (they will), it is an inevitability that from time to time a former player will score against you, just because there will be a lot of fixtures played where the opposition happens to own at least one player that you used to own. As you can see there, we have played nine league games and thus far seven former players have appeared against us. And this is when we've dropped down to a level where we haven't played in 25 years. It's not fate, it's basic probability.

Apologies for the long post - this is the kind of thing I spend hours on end analysing though.
 
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Ok- seemed fitting to add this footnote to a thread I started back in 2013 our last championship year. My beef/theory was that we were not polishing off the bottom sides at Home. Once again that has come back to bite us in the arse this season in comparison to the two teams who finished above us on goal difference. Ok its not drastic but
Brentford 5-1-0 (10-2-0 home and away 32 points)
Ipswich 4-1-1 (7-4-1 Home and away 25 points)
Wolves 3-2-1 (4-6-2 Home and away 18 points)

This season we failed away at those bottom teams as well. We are better than that and that is what is so frustrating. dropping 18 points to those teams is what cost us not losing at Bournemouth Middlesbrough or Norwich

This happens in my opinion too often to us in the championship and it cost us this year at least a play off place. I make that 4 times we have finsihed 7th now. A good season and good stability but an opportunity missed. This isnt a whine or a whinge just something I would really really like us to address and bloody quick.
 
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