Homophobic Language at Forest

[Alan]

Aye, I'd be really interested to see what that definition looked like

Totally missed that you'd edited your post with basically exactly what I was writing!

 

[CovJet]

That's debatable. You sit in a room for 4 hours because you have to. I doubt it changes the way the vast majority drive. It's a box ticking effort. I very much doubt you are going to make a middle aged man change the way he thinks or speaks with such a programme. It would be a worthwhile exercise for youths and kids.

I think it does impact some people. I'm middle aged and it did resonate with me and act as a deterrent- I did learn something but there were several repeat offenders there. As football fans we all have to be aware that some terrace language that has been embedded over decades is now regarded as a hate language crime by the police and clubs (even in your own friendship group if it is overheard).

 

[Keef]

Perhaps that is the case but what I'm trying to get to is at what point does it become criminal? If you do 35 in a 30 you get education not a criminal record....

I don’t know when it becomes criminal, I’m a bus driver in between jobs at the minute

 

[CovJet]

Aye, I'd be really interested to see what that definition looked like

It's is 'hate crime' that is legally defined, even though it remains subjective especially if used without an intensifying word (such as f**k). My research identifies whether language that has been the cause of an arrest is considered as banter by a sample population or whether it should be criminalised.

 

[Keef]

I'm sure this is case sometimes, however among me and my mates, pretty much all 'banter' is directed at one another and refers to something that's happened between us in the past, usually referred to as 'taking the piss'

Yea I get that, close knit team at work, mates down the pub, my comment was that one bloke who goes to far, everyone else goes ooh, pulls faces says “you’re a prick if you really believe black people look like monkeys” at that point it’s explained off as banter, by the person thinking black people = monkeys.
Think I’ve explained that better?

 

[Tony Towner]

I think it does impact some people. I'm middle aged and it did resonate with me and act as a deterrent- I did learn something but there were several repeat offenders there. As football fans we all have to be aware that some terrace language that has been embedded over decades is now regarded as a hate language crime by the police and clubs (even in your own friendship group if it is overheard).

I think that's a nieve interpretation. People know, they just choose not to care or accept or ligitimise it as banter or castigate as woke

 

[CovJet]

I struggle to believe a PhD paper would use a term as nebulous as banter, unless you've defined that OP?

Banter is used and misused widely, in academic terms its used to understand social coercion and cohesion. One of my concerns is that hate crime is legally described in fairly nebulous form. Andy - I'm not trying to be a language guru, or a football one - I simply want to provide insight...

 

[AndyWolves]

Banter is used and misused widely, in academic terms its used to understand social coercion and cohesion. One of my concerns is that hate crime is legally described in fairly nebulous form. Andy - I'm not trying to be a language guru, or a football one - I simply want to provide insight...

My rudimentary understanding of hate crime is that it's very much in the eye of the beholder (victim). Merely changing the term used to describe the language used doesn't change, in my opinion, the effects felt on the receiving party.

Or, saying 'its just bantz' doesn't change a damn thing.

 

[jd1981]

The word “banter” is usually used by people covering themselves after offending someone.
I think with banter it’s very much a case of know your audience and reality is you don’t have the right tell someone what should and shouldn’t offend them.
It’s not a case of one size fits all ie whenever I meet someone new from around the country and I tell them I’m from Wolverhampton they more often try to mimic my accent or have a little dig. Personally I don’t give a toss but someone else might.

 

[Tony Towner]

That boils my piss, even though my accent is more Brummie rather than BC because it defaults to the negative association of being thick. I blame Barry Taylor

 

[jd1981]

That boils my piss, even though my accent is more Brummie rather than BC because it defaults to the negative association of being thick. I blame Barry Taylor

Example in case then if they go to the next level of assuming I’m stupid or comments to that effect then yep I will take offence.
Still a thing that seems socially acceptable in media and in general that it’s ok to make out that people from the West Midlands are stupid.

 

[Derby Wolf]

I think it does impact some people. I'm middle aged and it did resonate with me and act as a deterrent- I did learn something but there were several repeat offenders there. As football fans we all have to be aware that some terrace language that has been embedded over decades is now regarded as a hate language crime by the police and clubs (even in your own friendship group if it is overheard).

I think you're still treating football fans who engage in these behaviors too monolithicly, there are different drivers and I think there are different 'characters' to consider.

1) The neanderthal 'you cant say nothink these days' types who can't/wont keep up with progress and shout stupid shit out. Rather than it being 'banter' they're clinging onto mythical 'halcyon days' might own a bar.

2) Substance abusers - coke is rife with football fans, it could be a contributing factor to somebody stepping out of line.

3) Groups egging one another on @Keef describes this perfectly. Everything is fair game until one oversteps.

So amongst those three you could have old and/or young, you could have an older 'can't say nothink' group who think think they're entitled to say what they want, or a sole neanderthal who oversteps and alienates those they're with.

As the case at Forest in the week there appears to be a greater element of self policing and somebody must have reported the individual for him to be removed and arrested.

The advent of supporter liaisons provides this gateway for policing your own - as an example our supporters trust appointed somebody who shared EDL/Anti Vax crap on their timeline and it was reported to the club by several on here and enough pressure was applied to force a backtrack.

 

[CovJet]

I think you're still treating football fans who engage in these behaviors too monolithicly, there are different drivers and I think there are different 'characters' to consider.

1) The neanderthal 'you cant say nothink these days' types who can't/wont keep up with progress and shout stupid shit out. Rather than it being 'banter' they're clinging onto mythical 'halcyon days' might own a bar.

2) Substance abusers - coke is rife with football fans, it could be a contributing factor to somebody stepping out of line.

3) Groups egging one another on @Keef describes this perfectly. Everything is fair game until one oversteps.

So amongst those three you could have old and/or young, you could have an older 'can't say nothink' group who think think they're entitled to say what they want, or a sole neanderthal who oversteps and alienates those they're with.

As the case at Forest in the week there appears to be a greater element of self policing and somebody must have reported the individual for him to be removed and arrested.

The advent of supporter liaisons provides this gateway for policing your own - as an example our supporters trust appointed somebody who shared EDL/Anti Vax crap on their timeline and it was reported to the club by several on here and enough pressure was applied to force a backtrack.

I'm aware that there isn't a one-size fits all monoculture, there are multiple dynamics at play - the research is all about how to categorize different levels of language that is potentially homophobic - the entire spectrum of homophobic language surely can't be prosecuted?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

It’s technically all a hate crime isn’t it?

 

[Johnny75]

My PhD at University

Is it the University of Life with extra flag waving as a subject?

 

[Derby Wolf]

I'm aware that there isn't a one-size fits all monoculture, there are multiple dynamics at play - the research is all about how to categorize different levels of language that is potentially homophobic - the entire spectrum of homophobic language surely can't be prosecuted?

The entire spectrum of homophobic language isn't prosecutable.

The College of Policing have released guidance on non-crime hate issues and reconciling policing with freedom of expression;

The guidance states that:non-crime hate incidents should not be recorded where they are trivial, irrational, or if there is no basis to conclude that an incident was motivated by hostility

individuals who are commenting in a legitimate debate – for example, on political or social issues – should not be stigmatised because someone is offended

if a record is made, it must be done in the least intrusive way possible – for example, it may not be necessary to record the name of an individual or the location of an incident

So the guidance is clear that a football match hasn't been deemed somewhere for that discussion.

The same guidance is why the likes of religious preachers can spout homophobic crap on highstreets or the EDL are allowed to do their marches.

As I repeat online more than I care to, freedom of expression isn't freedom from responsibilities and indeed consequences.

 

[CovJet]

The entire spectrum of homophobic language isn't prosecutable.

The College of Policing have released guidance on non-crime hate issues and reconciling policing with freedom of expression;





So the guidance is clear that a football match hasn't been deemed somewhere for that discussion.

The same guidance is why the likes of religious preachers can spout homophobic crap on highstreets or the EDL are allowed to do their marches.

As I repeat online more than I care to, freedom of expression isn't freedom from responsibilities and indeed consequences.

I'm fully aware of their guidance, that's the entire point - what do we consider trivial, irrational, banter, etc)? What further clarity can we add to the guidance? I favour education over a criminal record.

 

[pagey]

I was a high level referee. I was constantly abused about my sexuality during matches. Couldn't be further from the truth as I'm a red blooded male as they come. Its sad this is still a thing in this day and age

You say high level referee, how high?

 

[Mel Evo]

Upper Tees and Tynedale Boys Brigade league.

 

[Trips]

You say high level referee, how high?

High enough to be able to own 4 TV's!