Israel-Palestine

[pavlosmacwolf]

This may not be a popular standpoint, and i feel for the palestinians, but unless these choose peace or hamas there is no chance of any meaningful peace negotiations.
Frankly i wouldn't negotiate with a terrorist group whose sole ambition is to remove every living israeli/jew from the face of the earth, so how can anyone ask the israelis to do this.
Palestinians are a race of people with rights in this world, Hamas, as they have shown by murdering women and kids are a bunch of murdering terrorist fanatics.

 

[Hereford Wolf]

 

[The Saturday Boy]

View attachment 8519

All four of these maps are problematic and do not represent what they purport. The first map suggests a self governing state of Palestine (in the way the fourth map does for Israel) but this never existed. I believe most of the green was under British control. The second map never happened and the third map infers Israeli expansion whereas much of that area has very low levels of population.

I have fundamental disagreements about the politics of Israel and i believe that Palestinian people (not their “leaders) are oppressed. This map is not helpful though.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I see Israel have turned off electricity and water, and blocked food, aid and fuel today, which goes some way to help understand the situation Palestinians are in.

 

[leedswolf]

All four of these maps are problematic and do not represent what they purport. The first map suggests a self governing state of Palestine (in the way the fourth map does for Israel) but this never existed. I believe most of the green was under British control. The second map never happened and the third map infers Israeli expansion whereas much of that area has very low levels of population.

I have fundamental disagreements about the politics of Israel and i believe that Palestinian people (not their “leaders) are oppressed. This map is not helpful though.

After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the British were mandated to 'administer' Palestine.

 

[Tredman]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711639809431683289

 

[Templeton Peck]

This may not be a popular standpoint, and i feel for the palestinians, but unless these choose peace or hamas there is no chance of any meaningful peace negotiations.
Frankly i wouldn't negotiate with a terrorist group whose sole ambition is to remove every living israeli/jew from the face of the earth, so how can anyone ask the israelis to do this.
Palestinians are a race of people with rights in this world, Hamas, as they have shown by murdering women and kids are a bunch of murdering terrorist fanatics.

It's like a bloke has my neck under his foot for 50 years and then one day I punch him in the bollocks.

 

[pavlosmacwolf]

It's like a bloke has my neck under his foot for 50 years and then one day I punch him in the bollocks.

Its not all like that.
I am well aware what israel has done to palestine and its people, and frankly it has only been accepted for two reasons aS i see it.
1. The suffering of the holocaust, where it has been deemed unaceptable to attack them after what they suffered

And 2, the fact that the arab nations en masse have been trying to wipe them off the face of the earth, since the state of israel was first formed.

The arabs attacked the state fron day one of its formation, as soon as the brits pulled out. And all that taught them was they had to fight and win or die.
As moyshe dyan said in the six day war
" we lost 6,000,000 jews without a fight, and that will never happen again".
It was becUze the arabs couldnt beat them that many of them backed off, and it made israel a bit cocky, hence their uncontested, illegal expansion of their territory.
Thus, when hamas won the gaza election, and whilst doing nothing for gaza but immediately shacked up with iran and a few other terrorist mobs, whose mantra was to wipe israel of the face of the earth, and began attempting to do so, any chance of meaningful negotiation went totally out of the window, when otherwise the usa and britain and france could have dragged them to the table.
Sorry to be so longwinded, but my point is and always was, is thay there are two clear sides to solving the palestinian problem, and iran and hamas provide israel with a justifiable reason not to.

Plus the sadism and vile actions against mostly women and children on saturday morning is not acceptable whatever your cause.

I Am not jewish, but for me personally, to see an 85 year old grandmother who survived the holocaust, paraded through the streets for the fun of terrorists , is a step too far.

 

[Alan]

Israel as a state is an extension of Western foreign policy, let’s not pretend it has some divine right to exist.

It’s not just the boot of Israel on the necks of the Palestinians, it’s the boot of all neoliberal regimes.

 

[Johnny75]

Israel as a state is an extension of Western foreign policy, let’s not pretend it has some divine right to exist.

It’s not just the boot of Israel on the necks of the Palestinians, it’s the boot of all neoliberal regimes.

Erm no

 

[The Saturday Boy]

By this logic...Ukraine is also an extension of Western Foreign Policy.

Israel as a state is an extension of Western foreign policy, let’s not pretend it has some divine right to exist.

It’s not just the boot of Israel on the necks of the Palestinians, it’s the boot of all neoliberal regimes.

.

 

[Wolftone]

Israel as a state is an extension of Western foreign policy, let’s not pretend it has some divine right to exist.

It’s not just the boot of Israel on the necks of the Palestinians, it’s the boot of all neoliberal regimes.

Where we all live. All democratically elected. Not by me though tbh.
I gave up voting for any of them a long time ago.

 

[Alan]

By this logic...Ukraine is also an extension of Western Foreign Policy.

.

A lot of countries/peoples/ethnicities East of Germany (and South of the Mediterranean) have been done horribly wrong by our governments, I would never be so insane as to suggest otherwise.

I'm very much of the mindset that there are few (if any) "legitimate" borders in the world, but that doesn't change how completely outmatched the Palestinians are in their quest for self-determination.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Not sure what our governments have done horribly wrong to Poland. Or indeed Hungary or Czechoslovakia as was. Or Romania. The common jackboot there was very much Soviet in the creation of the Warsaw Pact.

 

[Alan]

Not sure what our governments have done horribly wrong to Poland. Or indeed Hungary or Czechoslovakia as was. Or Romania. The common jackboot there was very much Soviet in the creation of the Warsaw Pact.

Depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. For my part, the crimes committed in foreign countries by the Soviets were about Cold War politics as much as some inherent Soviet evil. The Warsaw Pact was a direct response to the formation of NATO, for example. These things get a bit circular in that way, and you can trace things back basically as far in history as you want to go. One stone creates many ripples innit.

There aren't any good guys at the echelon of global politics the likes of the US, UK, USSR, act/acted on.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Israel has violated 28 UN resolutions. There is no international appetite from the West to enforce any UN resolutions. Quite the opposite.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

The only thing really wrong was appeasing Stalin which is hardly surprising as nobody has successfully invaded Russia and appetite for a massive global conflict at that time was zero.

Last time I looked the West didn’t bring down the Iron Curtain.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Israel has violated 28 UN resolutions. There is no international appetite from the West to enforce any UN resolutions. Quite the opposite.

As has been said it is perfectly okay to be anti the Zionist nut job government of Israel, but while the US are completely shoulder to shoulder with them then they can act with impunity.

 

[Alan]

The only thing really wrong was appeasing Stalin which is hardly surprising as nobody has successfully invaded Russia and appetite for a massive global conflict at that time was zero.

Last time I looked the West didn’t bring down the Iron Curtain.

All I can say is that I think you’re oversimplifying things quite a bit.

Also, pointing out ills done by one government does not make ills done by another go away.

Really don’t want to get in a row over it, though, especially with you, mate.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Nuclear proliferation is definitely an area where the UK, US, France and Russia were equally culpable. The Bikini Atoll islanders were treated like absolute shit and there are area of Nova Zemlya where the Tsar Bomba was tested where you would probably glow like a ready brek kid* in about the year 2150.

* niche 70s UK cereal advert reference that will probably lost on a North Carolina native so apologies!