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Israel-Palestine

It has been a home of Christianity since the Romans were administering Judea. It has been a muslim holy land for over 1000 years.

Thinking it is just about a state of Israel is very simplistic. The issue is a state of Israel at the expense of other religions who also consider it their holy land. And that is why a two-state solution is the only way even to go tentatively forward.

Seeing as two religions getting on side by side in the area has been a powder keg since at least the first crusade and realistically quite a while before that, I don't hold out much hope.

But that doesn't mean deleting religion is a good idea as has been suggested either. That would create a vacuum which something would need to fill. The last person I can think of trying to do it was Stalin, and he wanted to fill the vacuum with worship of a totalitarian state. I think we can agree that was sub-optimal.
 
Elephant Pyjamas said:
You keep saying this as if it's some sort of justification, they dont have unlimited resources, so they can't and arent, so how is it a valid argument?

Israel DO (practically) have unlimited resources and ARE obliterating Palestinians, not just Hamas. Palestinians. Children, fucking children, ambulances, hospitals, women, everything.

It's been said before but it's no different to Britain carpet bombing the whole of Ireland because of the IRA, but we didn't did we.
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Oh good another person not reading all my posts thinking I’m pro Israel. How many times, committing a few outbreak attacks as opposed to horrific acts by Israel doesn’t give you a moral high ground. Whilst you’re at it have Hamas not killed Israeli children? It’s all about the mens rea of the perpetrators.
The attitude of “ I’ve done bad things but not as bad as him so I deserve full sympathy” is frankly ludicrous.
To point out using F bombs in paragraphs doesn’t make your point more valid either.
To note in that list why didn’t you include men? Or are they just expendable?
The British army weren’t the good guys during the troubles either and secondly the government in Ireland post 1972 actively took steps to stop Ireland being a safe haven for the IRA albeit not very well.
Its public stance was to denounce the IRA although a few politicians may have supported them. Point being Hamas are state funded by Iran and harbouring in Palestine.
 
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visage said:
If it's ok to wish death on the IDF because of the situation in Gaza, presumably the murder of Lee Rugby was fine because of what wlthe British Army did in Iraq?

Or is it different when the perps aren't Jewish?
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Fucking hell that's desperate. 😂😂
 
Alan said:
I cannot believe that this is what you two have reduced it to. Should I accuse you two of being anti-Arab because you're so busy making excuses for mass murder? Is it because the Palestinians are brown skinned that you're okay with their genocide?
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Maybe. They were probably fine with St Tony going into Iraq too.
 
visage said:
Why does the attacks on Gaza by Israel have a thread of nearly 100 pages, while the attacks by China on the 1m+ Uyghur Muslims not even have a thread?

Whats the difference?
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You can start one? It's probably due to the level of media coverage. October 7th was barely underway when our media chose to fill it's front pages with 100 dead babies bullshit.
 
jd1981 said:
Oh good another person not reading all my posts thinking I’m pro Israel (a). How many times, committing a few outbreak attacks as opposed to horrific acts by Israel doesn’t give you a moral high ground. Whilst you’re at it have Hamas not killed Israeli children? It’s all about the mens rea of the perpetrators.
The attitude of “ I’ve done bad things but not as bad as him so I deserve full sympathy (b)” is frankly ludicrous.
To point out using F bombs in paragraphs doesn’t make your point more valid either. (c)
To note in that list why didn’t you include men? Or are they just expendable? (d)
The British army weren’t the good guys during the troubles either and secondly the government in Ireland post 1972 actively took steps to stop Ireland being a safe haven for the IRA albeit not very well. (e)
Its public stance was to denounce the IRA although a few politicians may have supported them. Point being Hamas are state funded by Iran and harbouring in Palestine. (f)
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a) Where did I say that?

I simply responded to your post. I've read every single one of them.

b) I don't have sympathy for Hamas, i have sympathy for people who have been caught up in this vile war on both sides, clearly though it's the Palestinians who have been smashed much harder so obviously i have more sympathy with them, why don't you?

c) Just lol.

d) Why did i not mention men? Odd question, but because women and children in all aspects of war are generally far more vulnerable and innocent than men, this is war started by men, it's men everywhere who start these wars and the vast majority of men are the ones fighting in them.

e) You think i think Britain were the good guys during the troubles with the IRA? Wowzers, but my point is that if we responded in the same way as Israel has we'd have killed thousands of innocent Irish people in the same way that thousands of innocent Palestinians have been killed.

Hamas, a terrorist organisation attacked Israel on October the 7th, the response by Israel has been to kill around 60,000 people over the last 20 months, they are now shooting starving people as they try and get food for themselves and their families. Those people are nothing to do with Hamas, they are unarmed, they are offering NO threat whatsoever, have you seen the footage? I remember early on in this thread the completely justified outrage at babies being killed by Hamas, children are getting shot and murdered every day in Palestine.

f) The IDF are funded by the US and the UK. The leader of the IDF is up on war crimes charges,
 
Start a thread if you are so concerned.
And, while you´re at it there´s an horrendous situation in Sudan.
Looking forward to reading your informed opinion rather than the standard one liners lacking critical analysis.
 
Keef said:
They’re not going to be arresting 4-5000 people because they were caught on camera joining in with the chants, the BBC, they’ve be told to pick a side and may now realise it’s now the wrong one, the daily mail today is misquoting what Bob Vylan said to stir up more hatred, at some point the establishment are going to have deal with the fact that Israel is a genocidal country the public can see what’s it’s doing, even if politicians can’t and the public are angry.
all the sympathy for Israel over October 7th has gone now, and it’s all down to Israel and what they’ve done since
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With respect I’m not sure that can be brushed aside so dismissively. Those people chanting have fucked up, they know it, the organisers of Glastonbury know it, every man and his dog knows it. These idiots have kicked their own door in and left an open invitation to the right who are baying for blood and demanding instant retribution from ‘Two-tier’, who himself will be mightily pissed off he’s boxed into a corner and being dragged into this shit again.

His attempts at deflection by putting onus on the BBC won’t wash so it will be interesting to see what happens. Emily Eavis has clearly shat herself and desperately trying to cover her arse. And there will be a few of those chanters waking up the morning after the night before who are going to be sweating a bit which has nothing to do with the weather.

Starting to cut both ways this now and not before time. The realisation you can’t have your cake and eat it is beginning to sink in.
 
People all over the world need weaning off all religion and to be educated for secular democracy and versions of it. There is no civilised future on this planet if we continue with this nonsense.
I do have hope for the Middle East because the religious wars in Europe between the ´Protestants´ and the ´Catholics´ appear to be ebbing away.
I did not say ´delete´ religion.


Paddingtonwolf said:
It has been a home of Christianity since the Romans were administering Judea. It has been a muslim holy land for over 1000 years.

Thinking it is just about a state of Israel is very simplistic. The issue is a state of Israel at the expense of other religions who also consider it their holy land. And that is why a two-state solution is the only way even to go tentatively forward.

Seeing as two religions getting on side by side in the area has been a powder keg since at least the first crusade and realistically quite a while before that, I don't hold out much hope.

But that doesn't mean deleting religion is a good idea as has been suggested either. That would create a vacuum which something would need to fill. The last person I can think of trying to do it was Stalin, and he wanted to fill the vacuum with worship of a totalitarian state. I think we can agree that was sub-op
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Elephant Pyjamas said:
a) Where did I say that?

I simply responded to your post. I've read every single one of them.

b) I don't have sympathy for Hamas, i have sympathy for people who have been caught up in this vile war on both sides, clearly though it's the Palestinians who have been smashed much harder so obviously i have more sympathy with them, why don't you?

c) Just lol.

d) Why did i not mention men? Odd question, but because women and children in all aspects of war are generally far more vulnerable and innocent than men, this is war started by men, it's men everywhere who start these wars and the vast majority of men are the ones fighting in them.

e) You think i think Britain were the good guys during the troubles with the IRA? Wowzers, but my point is that if we responded in the same way as Israel has we'd have killed thousands of innocent Irish people in the same way that thousands of innocent Palestinians have been killed.

Hamas, a terrorist organisation attacked Israel on October the 7th, the response by Israel has been to kill around 60,000 people over the last 20 months, they are now shooting starving people as they try and get food for themselves and their families. Those people are nothing to do with Hamas, they are unarmed, they are offering NO threat whatsoever, have you seen the footage? I remember early on in this thread the completely justified outrage at babies being killed by Hamas, children are getting shot and murdered every day in Palestine.

f) The IDF are funded by the US and the UK. The leader of the IDF is up on war crimes charges,
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Erm in relation to Britain being good guys I think you’ve not read the word weren’t so I’d suggest read it properly.
lol to a point is pathetic and and a passive aggressive way of getting someone’s back up.
Men aren’t vulnerable in war?
I’d saying being between the ages of 18-40 as a male when war breaks out makes you extremely vulnerable. The expectation is you’ll be drafted or be expected to step up and do extremely dangerous tasks history pretty much tells you that. Any human death in war is a tragedy.
I’ve condemned Israel actions since not sure how many times I have to repeat this and know full well what they’re doing is appalling. Yes I have seen the pictures but thankyou for that.
Again have the PNA and PLO before them done absolutely everything in their power to flush out Hamas.
Hamas aren’t the Palestine people? So does the same principle apply to the IDF and Israel?
 
Paddingtonwolf said:
If you really think the religions of the world are all unilaterally going to give up their belief systems then i have some magic beans to sell you
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You need to go back to school and learn how to critically analyse statements instead of jumping to knee jerk conclusions and interpretations that ignore the original point .
I never said or suggested that ´the religions of the world are all unilaterally going to give up their belief systems´. That is your false and jump too many steps into a fantastical and simplistic interpretation. Education towards a more secular and internationalist world is what is required to break the chains and the cycle of religious nonsense and tyrrany. You want an example? Visit 21st Century Ireland and compare it to the post war control by the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Wolftone said:
You're an idiot.
Living in some sort of fantasy world.
The 'True' Islamists do not quaff any alcohol.
They avow the destruction of israel.
They slaughter gays. (and apostates, Christians, Hindus blah, blah).
They are the zealots that rule by fear, and the rest of the muslims, that want to live in peace and crack open an Erdinger, live in fear of them as do the rest of the modern world.
No one would be cracking any beers open if the mullahs had their way.
Crack on though with your love and peace.
Go live amongst them and spread your love.

If they just let The Jews be.
There would be NO KILLING.
Guaranteed.

That would be a good starting point.
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And, there we are. LOL.
Keep drinking the propaganda juice.
I´ll keep cracking on though with my love and peace.
 
Wellen Wolf said:
People all over the world need weaning off all religion and to be educated for secular democracy and versions of it. There is no civilised future on this planet if we continue with this nonsense.
I do have hope for the Middle East because the religious wars in Europe between the ´Protestants´ and the ´Catholics´ appear to be ebbing away.
I did not say ´delete´ religion.
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How does that work then? A world with a secular viewpoint is noble but just flawed.
Human history is littered with wars on religion and will go on and on.
How are you enforcing a world that’s more secular? You said education unfortunately you need to be wanted to be educated for it to work.
Frankly it sounds like very controlling behaviour.
 
jd1981 said:
Erm in relation to Britain being good guys I think you’ve not read the word weren’t so I’d suggest read it properly. - I read that you said they weren't, it was in response to my point wasn't it, not carpet bombing the whole of Ireland because of the IRA doesn't make them the good guys, as it's far more complex than that, however, the point is, that's exactly what Israel have done in their retaliation to Hamas.
lol to a point is pathetic and and a passive aggressive way of getting someone’s back up. - No, moaning about me saying "fucking" is pathetic and a passive aggressive way of getting someone's back up.
Men aren’t vulnerable in war? - Not as vulnerable as women or children are they? The point i was clearly making, was Israel are indiscriminate in who they torture, rape and murder, innocent babies and children, or innocent women young or old, but they'll kill men too.
I’d saying being between the ages of 18-40 as a male when war breaks out makes you extremely vulnerable. The expectation is you’ll be drafted or be expected to step up and do extremely dangerous tasks history pretty much tells you that. Any human death in war is a tragedy. - Of course!?
I’ve condemned Israel actions since not sure how many times I have to repeat this and know full well what they’re doing is appalling. Yes I have seen the pictures but thankyou for that.
Again have the PNA and PLO before them done absolutely everything in their power to flush out Hamas. At this point, it's not really important is it? Thousands of people are dying every week at the hands of Israel.
Hamas aren’t the Palestine people? So does the same principle apply to the IDF and Israel? No, assuming that every Palestinian person is a Hamas Terrorist is exactly what Israel are hiding behind! Is that what you think!? Every IDF solder IS acting under the orders of Netanyahu though, who is genocidal. I'm not sure how that is a comparative.
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Alan said:
As I’ve posted, there’s 1500 years between the Levant coming under Muslim control and the Balfour Declaration.

Modern Israel has nothing to do with the Judea you’re referencing.
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Good on yer Alan for the educated points you are making on this thread.
Just to complement your point.... there were 700 years in the Roman Empire too. A quick Google search on the internet suggests that there wasn´t a Jewish state in the Middle East for about 2000 years before 1948.
 
jd1981 said:
How does that work then? A world with a secular viewpoint is noble but just flawed.
Human history is littered with wars on religion and will go on and on.
How are you enforcing a world that’s more secular? You said education unfortunately you need to be wanted to be educated for it to work.
Frankly it sounds like very controlling behaviour.
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Classic.
I talk about ´education´ and you infer ´enforcing´ and ´very controlling behaviour´.
Do you work in ´education´ or are you Michael Gove?
 
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