Israel-Palestine

[jd1981]

I kindly suggest you read back my point on Ireland and your response very much looks like you’re amazed by using the phrase “Wowsers” I think we’ll both agree on a miss communication here.
You can make a point without using a swear word to make your point bigger. Remember we’re on a forum not at the pub so it’s impossible to judge how you’re saying things other than the typed words used.
Women and children are more vulnerable based on physical strength but that in itself makes men more vulnerable as naturally they’ll put themselves in front of women and children to fight to protect them.

 

[prawnking]

Classic.
I talk about ´education´ and you infer ´enforcing´ and ´very controlling behaviour´.
Do you work in ´education´ or are you Michael Gove?

How do you intend to change the education system in a different country? I think you've had too many bottles of Erdinger, mate

 

[jd1981]

Classic.
I talk about ´education´ and you infer ´enforcing´ and ´very controlling behaviour´.
Do you work in ´education´ or are you Michael Gove?

Right education isn’t controlling telling people from a different culture how they should practice religion is.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I kindly suggest you read back my point on Ireland and your response very much looks like you’re amazed by using the phrase “Wowsers” I think we’ll both agree on a miss communication here.
You can make a point without using a swear word to make your point bigger. Remember we’re on a forum not at the pub so it’s impossible to judge how you’re saying things other than the typed words used.
Women and children are more vulnerable based on physical strength but that in itself makes men more vulnerable as naturally they’ll put themselves in front of women and children to fight to protect them.

Ok, yes, miscommunication. The example of Britain dropping bombs on Ireland to "flush out" the IRA is comparable to what Israel are doing to Palestine to "flush out" Hamas, that's my point. Or suggesting every Irishman was a member of the IRA, or every Palestinian is a member of Hamas (as you have)

I feel passionate about this subject, so throwing in an occasional swear doesn't seem inappropriate regarding the subject matter, to clarify it's not directed in an aggressive way at you, it's about the subject.

I think we can all agree that an IDF soldier or Hamas terrorist killing a child is more difficult to understand than if they killed a man, that's the point i was making. Refer to the early comments about Hamas killing babies at the start of this thread for example.

 

[Alan]

It has been a home of Christianity since the Romans were administering Judea. It has been a muslim holy land for over 1000 years.

Thinking it is just about a state of Israel is very simplistic. The issue is a state of Israel at the expense of other religions who also consider it their holy land. And that is why a two-state solution is the only way even to go tentatively forward.

Seeing as two religions getting on side by side in the area has been a powder keg since at least the first crusade and realistically quite a while before that, I don't hold out much hope.

But that doesn't mean deleting religion is a good idea as has been suggested either. That would create a vacuum which something would need to fill. The last person I can think of trying to do it was Stalin, and he wanted to fill the vacuum with worship of a totalitarian state. I think we can agree that was sub-optimal.

I think there’s a harder line between the modern Levant and Levant of antiquity, but the rest I agree with, especially the last paragraph.

IMO there was certainly a time when religious belief was the core of the conflict; I don’t believe this is the case anymore, though. The US and UK assisted the creation of Israel out of geopolitical and military interests rather than spiritual ones. Personally, I feel the religious aspect has become a convenient recruiting tool (for both the IDF and Hamas) more than a conflict motivation.

 

[jd1981]

Good on yer Alan for the educated points you are making on this thread.
Just to complement your point.... there were 700 years in the Roman Empire too. A quick Google search on the internet suggests that there wasn´t a Jewish state in the Middle East for about 2000 years before 1948.

What happened to the people in Judah once Roman occupation occurred in 63bce?
I’ve been to this topic earlier? Rome made it a puppet state and installed kings loyal to them ie King Herod etc
The people of Judah remained in place, Judah wasn’t flushed out of its indigenous population and replace by citizens from around the empire.
Rome as most empires do made the states they conquered puppet states with local populations remaining in place. Religious practices in general were allowed.
Vast difference between occupation and flushing out a population.

 

[jd1981]

Ok, yes, miscommunication. The example of Britain dropping bombs on Ireland to "flush out" the IRA is comparable to what Israel are doing to Palestine to "flush out" Hamas, that's my point. Or suggesting every Irishman was a member of the IRA, or every Palestinian is a member of Hamas (as you have)

I feel passionate about this subject, so throwing in an occasional swear doesn't seem inappropriate regarding the subject matter, to clarify it's not directed in an aggressive way at you, it's about the subject.

I think we can all agree that an IDF soldier or Hamas terrorist killing a child is more difficult to understand than if they killed a man, that's the point i was making. Refer to the early comments about Hamas killing babies at the start of this thread for example.

Right the last sentence of the first paragraph is extremely offensive especially considering we have a lot of Irish members on this forum at absolutely no point have I suggested that every Irishmen was a member of the IRA or that every member of Palestine is in Hamas.
I’ve stated that government and leadership in each place either have done absolutely everything or have been possibly incompetent in flushing out terrorist organisation.

 

[Wellen Wolf]

How do you intend to change the education system in a different country? I think you've had too many bottles of Erdinger, mate

I have been a School Principal in Germany, China, Colombia and Gabon pursuing their national systems but also the European and International Baccalaureates. I have also led the UK National Curriculum, the USA´s Advanced Placement, plus the South Australian and Ontario curricula.
In a post that just arrived from jd1981 he uses aggressive language about education again and states ´Right education isn’t controlling telling people from a different culture how they should practice religion is.´
Whatever that means in the English language, I think I agree with the spirit. We in international education work on an ever so slightly higher level WITH local experts in a rapidly expanding sector of service industry. Just an additional point, I am not talking about Brit schools abroad.
PS Nope, it´s a tad early for another Erdinger.

 

[prawnking]

This Ignore list is just getting bigger

 

[Alan]

What happened to the people in Judah once Roman occupation occurred in 63bce?
I’ve been to this topic earlier? Rome made it a puppet state and installed kings loyal to them ie King Herod etc
The people of Judah remained in place, Judah wasn’t flushed out of its indigenous population and replace by citizens from around the empire.
Rome as most empires do made the states they conquered puppet states with local populations remaining in place. Religious practices in general were allowed.
Vast difference between occupation and flushing out a population.

The Romans sacked Jerusalem and razed it in 70AD, and forcibly removed (or killed via the siege) most of the Jewish population in Palestine.

Granted, in general what you say is correct; the destruction of the Second Temple was sparked by a rebellion in Judah/Judaea.

 

[Wellen Wolf]

What happened to the people in Judah once Roman occupation occurred in 63bce?
I’ve been to this topic earlier? Rome made it a puppet state and installed kings loyal to them ie King Herod etc
The people of Judah remained in place, Judah wasn’t flushed out of its indigenous population and replace by citizens from around the empire.
Rome as most empires do made the states they conquered puppet states with local populations remaining in place. Religious practices in general were allowed.
Vast difference between occupation and flushing out a population.

Yep, there certainly is a vast difference between what the Romans did and what Israel is doing. We appear to be getting there!

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

So what concessions does Palestine have to make? If the argument is none then that list is pure dreamworld stuff. Apologies for atrocities I’m afraid Palestine isn’t sweet and innocent either so would need to do the same and grow up equally and accept Israel?
Both sides have committed terrible acts, just because you believe Palestine haven’t done as bad doesn’t make them the good guys either once you start committing indiscriminate attacks you lose the moral high ground status.
Using Wikipedia as credible reference?

Well here you cite Palestine rather than Hamas for example.

No one would suggest that Ireland committed terrible acts when it was the IRA.

 

[Wellen Wolf]

Wer

This Ignore list is just getting bigger

Were you that kid lounging at the back of the class shouting out one liners and giving up on learning?

"Tarra a bit".

Got plenty to do.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

You need to go back to school and learn how to critically analyse statements instead of jumping to knee jerk conclusions and interpretations that ignore the original point .
I never said or suggested that ´the religions of the world are all unilaterally going to give up their belief systems´. That is your false and jump too many steps into a fantastical and simplistic interpretation. Education towards a more secular and internationalist world is what is required to break the chains and the cycle of religious nonsense and tyrrany. You want an example? Visit 21st Century Ireland and compare it to the post war control by the Roman Catholic Church.

you need to develop some manners. if you were a principal i pity your students

 

[jd1981]

Well here you cite Palestine rather than Hamas for example.

No one would suggest that Ireland committed terrible acts when it was the IRA.

I’ll ask you again where have said that everyone in Ireland is part of the IRA and Everyone in Palestine is part of Hamas.
A straight answer would be nice and the above post isn’t one at all. You’ve made a very unpleasant allegation.

 

[Wellen Wolf]

you need to develop some manners. if you were a principal i pity your students

Where´s the ´íf´ from? LOL.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I’ll ask you again where have said that everyone in Ireland is part of the IRA and Everyone in Palestine is part of Hamas.
A straight answer would be nice and the above post isn’t one at all. You’ve made a very unpleasant allegation.

My "as you have" comment was regarding the implication that Palestine (and by extension, their people, obviously) is responsible for Hamas's actions, as you have implied in the post i have quoted above.

Also

Both sides have committed terrible acts, just because you believe Palestine haven’t done as bad

The problem is painting Palestine as the innocent

There is a very strong implication here that it is Palestine rather than Hamas that have committed atrocities.

 

[jd1981]

Wer

Were you that kid lounging at the back of the class shouting out one liners and giving up on learning?

"Tarra a bit".

Got plenty to do.

I mean you’ve made a complete fool of yourself in this comment.
Yes well done on working at a high level in education worldwide.
However it absolutely doesn’t make you better placed or make your opinion more valid.
Reading between the lines I think you’ve posted your experience to try and intimidate other posters and make them feel inferior to you, absolutely doesn’t work.
To add I’ve lived and served in regions a lot closer to what we’re debating and extremely well travelled and educated thankyou.
It doesn’t make more well versed on the situation nor is it relevant.
To add would you advocate your students to talk down to people as you’ve done on numerous posts?
As said sounds like you’ve had an excellent career, nevertheless using it to make your points more valid. To add would you talk to people with such arrogance in public?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Maybe you mis-spoke/typed. Fair enough if you did.

 

[jd1981]

My "as you have" comment was regarding the implication that Palestine (and by extension, their people, obviously) is responsible for Hamas's actions, as you have implied in the post i have quoted above.

Also

It doesn’t read like that all so I’d kindly ask you to edit it appropriately. Nowhere is there a definitive statement that I’ve stated everyone in Palestine is a terrorist.