Leeds 1-1 Wolves: Verdict Thread

[WolfMan]

Alot of these posts are making out everything that happened is exclusively about us and the decisions our coaching staff and players make.

If it was that simple any idiot could get a football team playing great football. Maybe for the first 3 games we caught teams cold, nobody was really sure what style or formation Bruno was going to play. Maybe we were doing small things tactically that's aren't obvious but are relatively easy to negate.

All the teams in the league have analytics departments nowadays, they'll be studying everything we do and thinking of ways to stop us. It's ludicrous really to pin the reason we've gone a bit shit on an internal decision to suddenly start playing that way. It'd be a damning indictment on the "best league in the world" if we were allowed to keep playing like that throughout the season. I'm sure if he could Bruno would have us playing champagne football whilst blowing teams away, it's simply not going to happen with this group of players.

The game management thing, I'm sure the intention isn't to retreat into our own and half and lose the ability to pass the ball 5 yards. It's just what happens when your not miles better than the team your playing, away from home in a hostile ground when that team are throwing the kitchen sink desperate to get something after a poor start to their season.

 

[Johnny75]

100% didn’t come from Lage. He was fuming and so were the rest of the players. He wants them to play progressive football but they’ve been used to going back for the last 4 years and that creeps back in sometimes. That’s not sniping at Nuno, our approach worked under him and gave the majority of us the best times watching this club but right now it isn’t helping and the transition is not as easy as some believe it to be. I think those first 3 games have given some fans false hope that it was going to happen overnight.

I accept that change is sometimes slow but he's managed it against 3 very good sides for the first 3 and then Watford.

But for some reason he's changed all that. It's slightly bewildering that the players are doing something completely different to those initial games.

If Leeds were a one off I think most of us would just say that's teething troubles but it isn't. Brentford, 80 minutes of the Villa game and today have been the polar opposite to those first three games and I can't fathom why.

I genuinely can't see what the plan is anymore. If he's gesticulating and unhappy then something is going badly wrong in training as he seems like a very good communicator.

I know interviews after the game are mostly PR nonsense but if he was that unhappy with his players then he wouldn't tell the press it was all under control would he? That's Chemical Ali stuff.

 

[Johnny75]

Something had to change after the first 3 games, it was nice to see us play exciting football ball but with 3 losses and no goals scored Bruno decided to be a bit more pragmatic, hard to blame him for that. It appears from what Slink says that the players just aren't listening or able to do what he wants, not sure what he can do about that, it's not like he has loads of alternatives to make changes.

This is the bit I don't buy. The thing that has to change from those games was

1) better finishing - we bought Hwang
2) Cut out the individual errors in defending - we are still struggling with this and always will with these players.

Stopping creating goals with fast flowing combinations seems madness to me if you can't stop the individual errors.

 

[slink]

I accept that change is sometimes slow but he's managed it against 3 very good sides for the first 3 and then Watford.

But for some reason he's changed all that. It's slightly bewildering that the players are doing something completely different to those initial games.

If Leeds were a one off I think most of us would just say that's teething troubles but it isn't. Brentford, 80 minutes of the Villa game and today have been the polar opposite to those first three games and I can't fathom why.

I genuinely can't see what the plan is anymore. If he's gesticulating and unhappy then something is going badly wrong in training as he seems like a very good communicator.

I know interviews after the game are mostly PR nonsense but if he was that unhappy with his players then he wouldn't tell the press it was all under control would he? That's Chemical Ali stuff.

I don’t think it’s the polar opposite. It’s obviously different but i do think it’s a case of him maybe thinking he had to change it a little and the players reverting to type sometimes. It’s also the case that sides play differently and we’ve struggled when teams press us (Leeds and Brentford) Villa was just a bang average game from both sides and mismatched team that he gave reason for that didn’t work but the subs did.

I genuinely think it’s just a case of going back to what they know sometimes. No matter how much Bruno drills it into them it’s not quite getting there especially when we’re under pressure. We also can’t play every week and we know these players are inconsistent.

Don’t think Bruno thinks we played well. What i’ve taken from his comments and how it felt at the game for me anyway was not so great on the ball but pretty solid defensively apart from the goal so in control. Tiredness killed us but again it’s not black and white. I’ve seen numerous comments saying Ruben should have come on earlier and i thought so too but he let Gelhardt get past him far too easily for the pen. Bruno and us expect much better from him but there’s nothing Bruno can do about that.

 

[slink]

This is the bit I don't buy. The thing that has to change from those games was

1) better finishing - we bought Hwang
2) Cut out the individual errors in defending - we are still struggling with this and always will with these players.

Stopping creating goals with fast flowing combinations seems madness to me if you can't stop the individual errors.

1)Hwang has better finishing but is terrible in the build up. Mis-controls the ball constantly and slows down the moves.

2) Still getting the errors but thought is definitely players closer together and it’s easier to cover for the errors. Club need to support him with better players.

 

[Alan]

Does that mean equally well deserved the point today as Leeds were unable to make there advantage count?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[Carsy]

Yes, absolutely.

Fairs. So we are where we deserve to be, points wise etc

 

[Alan]

That's my view, yeah. Obviously there's some margin for error because refs do still get things wrong, but in general I think the table is a pretty honest representation of things.

 

[Carsy]

That's my view, yeah. Obviously there's some margin for error because refs do still get things wrong, but in general I think the table is a pretty honest representation of things.

I don’t disagree, just clarifying.


Equally it’s our fault we didn’t take our chances in first 3 games, it’s up to the opposition to put the ball in the net when we play poor

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Think today's poor performance was a combination of tactics, which actually worked alright briefly, and some woeful individual performances which undid the former.

Early on it looked like Wolves were intentionally going pretty direct, just playing over the top to Leeds' press as much as anything. It worked alright to begin with, the goal came about in that way, few other occasions where players got in behind down the channels but they didn't really come to anything, largely due to the front three in my opinion. After the goal the wingbacks seemed to refrain from pushing into those spaces and so it was left to the poorly performing front three to make anything of the long balls forwards, which they consistently failed to do. Jimenez did nothing all game apart from win a few cheap freekicks in the first half, Traore lost the physical battle with Cooper every time and never managed to find space away from him, Hwang just ran around with little impact on anything.

With nothing to worry Leeds they naturally committed more forwards as the game went on and they became more desperate to get back into it. Even losing their best player and being reliant on teenagers from the bench didn't weaken them enough to slow the inevitable tide.

It is frustrating how badly the football has regressed from the very start of the season, seemingly continuing to do so game by game. I can perfectly understand some changes after the three blanks to start the season, limiting the press and being a bit more cautious to protect a shaky backline, but it appears almost nothing has been retained from that early flourish. Seems bizarre on the face of it that Lage managed to change the mentality so much so soon with few changes in personnel, the extra energy and impetus, the movement off the ball just a distant memory now. Was notable a few times today where players had the ball in decent positions and looked up to find a human chess set back in place so soon after the early season promise, Jimenez a repeat offender.

I think there's probably a combination of factors. The initial transition being so stark due to a new voice after a prolonged period of the same management. The reining in of those plans after struggling to turn that promise into points. I think the latter had perhaps dented the enthusiasm the players had for the former, coupled with Lage dialling the tactics back closer to last year had provided them the comfort blanket they craved and now instead of embracing the brave new world they're reverting to type instead.

It would be nice, particularly now there are some points on the board, to start to see some of those green shoots from August return before Christmas. Have a chance to properly judge the squad against Lage's designs and go into January knowing exactly what needs to be done. The breathing space is there now, have another crack at it.

 

[AndyWolves]

Is Marcal injured? I guess he is but no idea around the severity

 

[Johnny75]

1)Hwang has better finishing but is terrible in the build up. Mis-controls the ball constantly and slows down the moves.

2) Still getting the errors but thought is definitely players closer together and it’s easier to cover for the errors. Club need to support him with better players.

Strange with Hwang, his first touch for the goals against Newcastle were superb and his general play was very good but since then he's been poor in general play.

I still thinks he makes that run against Leicester, Spurs and Utd Adama makes and he scored them all.

We seem to have stopped making those runs and running off the ball in general. That's nothing to do with the opposition and is a real retrograde step as when we were doing it the press didn't work. Now we've stopped it the press is easier as we are statues.

We then revert to booting the ball to Raul and expecting him to hold it up and link with Hwang and Adama who are static and that is counter productive as he is crossed out and we lose any second ball (particularly as our midfield aren't that mobile).

On the individual errors, that's simply a player characteristic and dropping deeper invites those mistakes to be further in your own half. I thought somebody would've told Bruno that we conceded a shit load last season doing exactly the same thing and that moving higher up the pitch is the only answer as mistakes higher up the pitch are less costly.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Was on the train back from Leeds and decided to read some stuff on here. Got to about page 3 and PK wanted me to Chuck my phone out the window.

Got off and had a few beers in brum. Now I’ve got home and carried on where I left off and I don’t know how my phone isn’t on the drive.

Fair play to TT and Jonny for entertaining it without combusting.

 

[Papper]

Fair to say we are no better than another ten teams in the ' middle ' The margins of error are not lessening comparatively.

Happy with the recent haul. Hwang looks a confident soul. Like him.

No chance of relegation no chance of top four. All a bit meh ...

 

[PuntsWolf]

Just going to caveat this. Slink, normally I love your posts and I don’t think I’ve ever diagreed, but there a lot here I don’t agree with

On the way back from the game and I can’t help but think most of the criticism is based on pre conceived ideas rather than looking at the game for what actually happened.

Some people have preconceived opinions, I’ve also seen reasonable posts being objective. Shouldn’t be so dismissive / categorise everyone so binary.

We started well and on the front foot but then once Leeds got in to a bit of a rhythm struggled to get out mainly down to poor decisions from the front 3 and the 2 in midfield unable to pick a pass.

We were OK. I mean we did something which is more than the rest of the game. The front 3 were all horrific.

It’s the squads inability to be calm and make better decisions under pressure that costs us rather than anything tactically. Bruno was fuming most of the game with the players management of it.

He picked Donck. He did well on second balls in all fairness, but I’m genuinely better in midfield on the ball than he is. “Donck didn’t open open up and play a simple ball to the right flank”. Yes! Baffling! An international football has so little ability/confidence himself he plays the ball backwards in good positions. This isn’t new. He’s done it the whole time he’s been here. So if you want to play good football then you cannot play him in a midfield 2. Don’t need to be an “top level manager” to know that. Same as it would be distressing if you were being dismayed if Dave Edwards couldn’t hit 30 yard balls.

While Leeds dominated in the second half we still had chances to finish them off with good play but failed to take the chances, whether that was Raul, Ait-Nouri, Podence or Hwang. Fatigue killed us in the end as up until RAN went off we never really looked like conceding apart from when Coady played an awful clip in to midfield and Sa made a great save. The defending was resolute and it did look like we had done enough until Semedo had a brain fade.

I was baffled about how we fatigued. I thought the whole game we’d kill them eventually as their pressing was ridiculous and there was no way they wouldn’t tire! It was us looking leggy with half our team looking leggy and it was Semedo’s faux injury/tiredness that led to the penalty (thought it was stonewall live). Terrible play.

The football isn’t as good as it was in the first 3 games but don’t think it’s as easy as saying it’s now shit and there isn’t a plan. We know there’s weaknesses in the squad and we know they struggle to control the ball and win games so a mix is needed. We get the mix at the moment and it is a case of digging in at times but we’re picking up points. Bruno still needs to work with this squad and it 100% needs adding to but doesn’t seem like a few fans are really prepared to give him that because of what comes across as pining for Nuno and the good times.

Again. Seems to be people are either pro/anti
Bruno and vice versa with Nuno and you are the same rather than just being objective. The first 3 games were good and people were happy with that despite results. The results have now been better but the football shite. It is what it is. That is what has happened. It’s non negotiable. I’m prepared to give him time. I was anti Nuno, pro Bruno. But the last few games are no different to Nuno. It was shite, we got lucky (ish). We scored a scrappy goal and held on, I thought the only way we’d concede was a set piece as personell wise Leeds are shite but we made them look like prime Barca but they lacked quality to do anything but the back 3 and Sa were good.

Again it wasn’t great today and yes Leeds were without couple of players but they are a hard team to play against if you struggle to play through a press and we do and without new players we’re not really going to be able to do that as the lads we have at the moment can’t do it often enough although Ait-Nouri did help a little until cramp got him.

Bunch of championship players running around a lot. There’s a reason they are down the bottom. Then today their only good players didn’t play and Raphinha went off injured. Team of our quality should have been able to beat the press and then isolate shit players 1v1

Sa, Ait-Nouri, Saiss, Kilman were all good today(Semedo too until just before the penalty).

Ait Nouri was dreadful. Shit in attack and Saiss bailed him out countlessly. Very disappointed. Back 3 and Semedo were good (until pen).

Most of the others worked hard but weren’t good enough on the ball. Donk always in the right place but never picked the right pass and gave it away too often and the front 3 just didn’t hold it enough and constantly make the wrong decisions when in the final third.

Donck can’t do it. Not good enough, though he was good off the ball. Front 3 all laughably bad. Raul did a maierhoffer impression second half

We’re a work in progress still and i personally think the whole well why did we sack Nuno if this is the style needs to be dropped but people are obviously entitled to their view. Biggest thing for me is that Bruno definitely doesn’t want to play deep and sit in but at times this squad has to and battle which we still do.
Give him time and patience to hopefully bed more players and returning players in and transition to a more forward thinking approach. If we can’t then still play a more forward thinking game then we can question it but i do think most fans who were patient with Nuno and rightly so are keen to
criticise Bruno too quick.

I’m all for Bruno, but the football isn’t getting better. We are getting worse. Fair enough we’re getting results (huge slices of luck involved, not sustainable. Ask Nuno for details). But we’re still only 10th and we ain’t played anyone any good yet.

 

[slink]

Just going to caveat this. Slink, normally I love your posts and I don’t think I’ve ever diagreed, but there a lot here I don’t agree with

Some people have preconceived opinions, I’ve also seen reasonable posts being objective. Shouldn’t be so dismissive / categorise everyone so binary.

That's fair enough, it's what this board is here for. I did say most and not all and i'll stand by that when i said it. There's been counter arguments/points been made since which were much better put imo so again that's fair whether i agree with them or not.

We were OK. I mean we did something which is more than the rest of the game. The front 3 were all horrific.

He picked Donck. He did well on second balls in all fairness, but I’m genuinely better in midfield on the ball than he is. “Donck didn’t open open up and play a simple ball to the right flank”. Yes! Baffling! An international football has so little ability/confidence himself he plays the ball backwards in good positions. This isn’t new. He’s done it the whole time he’s been here. So if you want to play good football then you cannot play him in a midfield 2. Don’t need to be an “top level manager” to know that. Same as it would be distressing if you were being dismayed if Dave Edwards couldn’t hit 30 yard balls.

If Neves has a knock then Donk has to play, i don't see what else Bruno can do to be honest. He's been hamstrung by the clubs inability to support him in the transfer window. Can't wait to see what he has to do when Saiss/Boly go to AFCON

I was baffled about how we fatigued. I thought the whole game we’d kill them eventually as their pressing was ridiculous and there was no way they wouldn’t tire! It was us looking leggy with half our team looking leggy and it was Semedo’s faux injury/tiredness that led to the penalty (thought it was stonewall live). Terrible play.

Always thought we would tire personally. Leeds play that way all the time and they are a fit side and we were working hard off the ball for long periods. We couldn't keep hold of the ball because as mentioned players we needed to were awful. Front 3 too busy trying battle with defenders rather than look after the ball.

Again. Seems to be people are either pro/anti
Bruno and vice versa with Nuno and you are the same rather than just being objective. The first 3 games were good and people were happy with that despite results. The results have now been better but the football shite. It is what it is. That is what has happened. It’s non negotiable. I’m prepared to give him time. I was anti Nuno, pro Bruno. But the last few games are no different to Nuno. It was shite, we got lucky (ish). We scored a scrappy goal and held on, I thought the only way we’d concede was a set piece as personell wise Leeds are shite but we made them look like prime Barca but they lacked quality to do anything but the back 3 and Sa were good.

I think i've been pretty objective. I've said the football isn't good and we're grinding out results at the moment with flashes of the early style of play and given reasons for why i think it is. I missed a few that Johnny then added to like Hwang now playing, gets in the right positions in the box but woeful at times in general play. We just struggled with their press, we never look comfortable on the ball when teams do that to us. We lack calmness and actually players who are comfortable with taking risks and finding forward passes and then basic decision making. Just look at Coady playing the clipped pass in to Hwang i think it was for Gelhardt's chance, what the fuck was that?

Bunch of championship players running around a lot. There’s a reason they are down the bottom. Then today their only good players didn’t play and Raphinha went off injured. Team of our quality should have been able to beat the press and then isolate shit players 1v1

Ait Nouri was dreadful. Shit in attack and Saiss bailed him out countlessly. Very disappointed. Back 3 and Semedo were good (until pen).

Donck can’t do it. Not good enough, though he was good off the ball. Front 3 all laughably bad. Raul did a maierhoffer impression second half

I’m all for Bruno, but the football isn’t getting better. We are getting worse. Fair enough we’re getting results (huge slices of luck involved, not sustainable. Ask Nuno for details). But we’re still only 10th and we ain’t played anyone any good yet.

I agree that we should be beating them when you look at it on paper but like i said earlier football is not black and white and that's my problem is that people seem to be looking at it that way. It's not just about what we do like it is with most Man City games for examply because we aren't that good so at times we're not going to look great. The league apart from the top 3 is a mish mash anyway in my opinion. hey can all be beaten by most of the other teams but generally won't be and 16 of the other 17 can all beat each other on a given day.

Disagree with Ait-Nouri. Tough against Raphinha and tired because of the work he had put in. Did well in attack until the final ball which yes was a let down but he's barely played so will cut him some slack. As soon as he went off we looked like conceding down our left with Sommerville getting in behind a few times.

Agreed with all of that.

Again i don't think i've said it's great football and that i'm particularly pleased with it because it's definitely not but understand it's a blend of a few things right now. Trying to still play the football we did at times in the first few games but probably not having the players on the pitch to do it (Donk, Hwang etc...) and then old habits die hard and naturally they all drop because that's what they've been doing for 3 years. As i said earlier when it comes to other teams there's a top 3 and United should finish 4th but there's nothing between most of the rest it's just who turns up on the day.

I think my main issue was how out there the criticism is to be honest and it is in my opinion just down to it not being Nuno in some instances, obviously not all. I wouldn't say i'm pro Bruno either, i'm just pro giving Bruno a chance and understand that 10 games isn't enough to make a judgement especially when we all know the problems we have within the squad. Neither of the midfield 2 should be starting regularly for us, our best centre half is now Kilman and our biggest goal threat at the moment has spells in the game where he genuinely looks terrible.

After reading all that i actually don't think we do disagree that much i'm just probably a bit more relaxed at the moment and just frustrated with how some of the criticisms are put across but also maybe being slightly easy on Bruno at times because i certainly don't agree with a few things he's done recently because i want to stay positive and give him time to evolve us in his vision.

 

[Alan]

While the emotions are high, I think we’re letting Raúl off lightly. We needed him to be better. We needed him to be reliable. He wasn’t that. He’s supposed to be one of the best players on the team, if not the best.

I’m extremely disappointed in his second half effort. This was a major opportunity for him to step up, and he shrunk. It’s a major worry, IMO.

 

[Paul]

Bunch of championship players running around a lot. There’s a reason they are down the bottom. Then today their only good players didn’t play and Raphinha went off injured. Team of our quality should have been able to beat the press and then isolate shit players 1v1

Ait Nouri was dreadful. Shit in attack and Saiss bailed him out countlessly. Very disappointed. Back 3 and Semedo were good (until pen).

To be fair, Raphina was a massive thorn in our side until he went off, I wish we had a quick player that could terrorise opponents just by running at them, but we can all dream can't we, with RAN I think people were blinded by the fact that he was the only one making runs into the box which he managed a few times, to say that side of his game was shit is a tad harsh, his defending was atrocious though.

 

[Paul]

After reading all that i actually don't think we do disagree that much i'm just probably a bit more relaxed at the moment and just frustrated with how some of the criticisms are put across but also maybe being slightly easy on Bruno at times because i certainly don't agree with a few things he's done recently because i want to stay positive and give him time to evolve us in his vision.

My only worry, and I so want him to succeed, is that he is yet to show any sign that he is the future, if you know what I mean, I haven't seen anything yet that any other league manager couldn't have achieved with the players at his disposal.

 

[prawnking]

Was on the train back from Leeds and decided to read some stuff on here. Got to about page 3 and PK wanted me to Chuck my phone out the window.

Got off and had a few beers in brum. Now I’ve got home and carried on where I left off and I don’t know how my phone isn’t on the drive.

Fair play to TT and Jonny for entertaining it without combusting.

Some of you have properly disappeared up your own arses since Nuno left...

All I said was the performance wasn't good enough but the reaction was OTT.

Absolutely fine for people to disagree, and I've enjoyed reading differing viewpoints.

Not enjoyed the 'top boys' of the forum getting personal and throwing their weight around. 'Entertaining it'... Talk about taking yourselves too seriously