Refereeing question

[FrankMunro-371]

Aww, Frank has me on ignore coz of my beer snobbery.... :/

I do not and never will have anyone on ignore. Sorry I only just saw your post, please accept my apologies.

Regarding the Jota and Morrison incident, while yes the referee could have sent off Morrison, I did not expect him to. Having allowed Roberts to get away with two awful tackles, he was never going to caution Morrison for his tackle.

Although to be fair to the referee, in most such incidents, the referee will usually caution them both as he did last night.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Can referees book a player twice within the same incident if there are two separate offences Frank?

Yes he can, though to be honest it rarely happens.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I saw a Northern Ireland game a couple of years ago where one of the NI players committed a foul worthy of a yellow card, the ref played on for advantage, then 30 seconds or so later before the ball had gone dead the same NI player hacked someone else down. The ref then stopped play and showed him two yellows, off you pop. That was excellent refereeing.

 

[NE66Wolf]

Thanks Frank, right along my train of thought. Because of his leniency we also had the late flashpoint that led to Dean being dismissed but it could all have been stamped out in the first 5 minutes by showing that first yellow card and thus stamping his authority on the game early on

Exactly - Roberts was very careful after his yellow. A compilation of the bad fouls that have gone unpunished on Jota would be interesting viewing!

 

[jlo]

I saw a Northern Ireland game a couple of years ago where one of the NI players committed a foul worthy of a yellow card, the ref played on for advantage, then 30 seconds or so later before the ball had gone dead the same NI player hacked someone else down. The ref then stopped play and showed him two yellows, off you pop. That was excellent refereeing.

Superb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY0DD120slk

 

[The Bear]

Excellent stuff. Chris Baird?

 

[FrankMunro-371]

I saw a Northern Ireland game a couple of years ago where one of the NI players committed a foul worthy of a yellow card, the ref played on for advantage, then 30 seconds or so later before the ball had gone dead the same NI player hacked someone else down. The ref then stopped play and showed him two yellows, off you pop. That was excellent refereeing.

While I agree that it was excellent refereeing it does raise a question that has been discussed on here before.

If a referee is going to show a yellow or red card, should he stop play to do so? In this case, Northern Ireland would argue that had the referee issued the caution at the time of the offence, then the second offence would not have occurred.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

A yellow - no
A second yellow that would lead to a red - yes

 

[AndyWolves]

While I agree that it was excellent refereeing it does raise a question that has been discussed on here before.

If a referee is going to show a yellow or red card, should he stop play to do so? In this case, Northern Ireland would argue that had the referee issued the caution at the time of the offence, then the second offence would not have occurred.

How about not committing two yellow card offenses?

 

[FrankMunro-371]

How about not committing two yellow card offenses?

That is the responsibility of the footballer. The referee can only take action when players commit offences, we have no control on when, why or how they do so.

 

[AndyWolves]

That is the responsibility of the footballer. The referee can only take action when players commit offences, we have no control on when, why or how they do so.

That's kind of my point, the best way to not get sent off is to not commit two yellow card offenses - whether advantage is being played or not

 

[WolfmanOz]

Some very good points you have made Frank re referring - in agreement with all that you have said.

 

[Tredman]

Interesting article in the Times today on the decline in refereeing quality in England:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...q?shareToken=13dcc6b55c6f9b539bb03c43de0fd071

Wenger sums it up quite well:

Refereeing standards are declining. Cech’s manager, Arsène Wenger, the senior figure of his trade, had every right to voice his concern. “Not one English referee will go to the World Cup,” Wenger said. Arsenal’s manager then took to mockery, taking aim at Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL) and the FA. “But everything is all right. We cannot say a word against it because they’re untouchable.” When referees should be the accountables.

It's been very obvious this season that a lot of refereeing is not up to standard, but there is very much a culture of arrogance from referees where this is not addressed.

 

[Lord Knows]

Are home clubs required to arrange a pre designated area for team managers/coaches who are asked to leave the side of the pitch. And should these areas have means of communication to the pitchside bench?

 

[Tredman]

As if by magic Wenger charged:

'Wenger charged over conduct'

http://www.skysports.com/share/11193129

The Corleones would be proud of the racket run by referees.

 

[Tony Towner]

In fairness, he accused him of being bent, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with him in one sense, Mike Dean always likes to make the game about himself, but as a manager you can't say that and expect to not be charged.

 

[The Bear]

Why are they so protected though? You can't say anything bad about them nowadays without the FA looking into it.

Refs need to be just as accountable as managers IMO. After all they directly affect the game more than managers.

 

[Tredman]

That's fair enough, but why isn't Dean suspended for being crap or investigated for corruption?

It's the shear blinkedness and arrogance which is the problem - they are clearly fairly incompetent but don't seem to acknowledge it or do anything about it.

 

[Tony Towner]

I agree with you both. There are two different things at play here though a diabolical refereeing decision which should see the ref sitting out a couple of games and a manager saying "he saw what he wanted to see" ie inferring he's bent, which tbf the FA can't let go. For the record I am convinced Mark Halsey used to ref our games looking to favour the opposition so I'm no apologist for them.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Interesting article in the Times today on the decline in refereeing quality in England:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...q?shareToken=13dcc6b55c6f9b539bb03c43de0fd071

Wenger sums it up quite well:



It's been very obvious this season that a lot of refereeing is not up to standard, but there is very much a culture of arrogance from referees where this is not addressed.

There is concern within the game regarding the standard of refereeing. I like to think I put a balanced view forward on the matter, and as such I would make the following observations.

More work than ever is done at grassroots level to help new and aspiring referees to progress. They are mentored and assessed as much as possible, but sadly there are not enough mentors and assessors available, so we have to be selective in how often new referees are observed. We aim to get them to level 5 as soon as possible, where they become senior county referees. Their next stop is level 4 where they come under the jurisdiction of the pyramid system.

Most referees are not unapproachable or arrogant, but the few that are make it difficult for others, and referees do have to be careful not to be seen over friendly with players. Who can forget Graham Poll knocking the ball around with Charlton players while waiting for the opposition to come out for the second half.

The fact that Cech got so angry should alarm people, he is one of the most placid of players who rarely remonstrated with officials.

I would agree that a lot needs to be done to improve refereeing standards, but players and managers can help by:

Cutting out the simulation.

Not get into the referees face every time a decision goes against their team.

Don't always remonstrate with the fourth official.

Referees for their part need to:

Be more consistent.

Referee more games, twenty or so a season in the PL or EFL is not enough, they should be made to referee grassroots football. All games are of equal importance to the participants.

While not being over friendly with players, be firm but approachable.

A lot of these things have been mentioned at seminars, but for things to improve we first must find a way of referees and players not being so remote and cautious to each other.

The FA have a big part to play in this, but sadly in my opinion they are not doing enough. Charging a manager or player every time he criticises the referee is not constructive. The FA need to be proactive and get referees and managers together on a regular basis.
Not for one second do I think I have all the answers to the current problems, but I think co-ordinated work on the points I have raised would be a start.