REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[leedswolf]

Haha, stay classy!

Always mind my Ps & Qs...

 

[Premier Quality]

As to the EU purchasing & rollout of vaccines this has sod all to do with Brexit.

As others have said that even if still in we could have gone our own way, though it is enlightening that none of the other larger countries (Germany, France, Italy) have done so yet.

Some others have started to or are at least in discussions (spoke to my sister in Denmark & they are apparantly negotiating with Israel for any surplus as they have vaccinated the majority now).

Not sure that this should be on the referendum thread anyway as it isn't relevant to that.

Brexit is what allowed us to handle our vaccine programme differently to the eu.

as you say, the theory is that any eu country could have gone their own way, the practicality of it is that none of them could.

I was reading about Denmark (and Austria) negotiating for Israeli vaccines (eu members are allowed to use any vaccines not licensed as part of the eu vaccination program). As I understand it, the danish government is a coalition and two of the major parties won’t allow that deal until Israel has vaccinated the Palestinians.

in my view, the positive impacts of brexit (the ability to do things outside of a large and cumbersome bloc) are as valid a point of discussion as the other side of things (difficulties in trading with that bloc once we’d left).

 

[Tony Towner]

It isn't, but you keep on saying it and I'm sure eventually it'll be true. Bit like Brexit in general, you just have to believe.

 

[Premier Quality]

Which bit do you disagree with?

if it’s “Brexit is what allowed us to handle our vaccine programme differently to the eu.”, what makes you think that if we were still in the EU, we would have been the only country to decline to be part of the pan-eu vaccine programme?

 

[Tony Towner]

Brexit is what allowed us to handle our vaccine programme differently to the eu.

This bit. We had the veto, we weren't in the single currency, we weren't in Schengen why wouldn't we have gone alone on this, when it's clear it was feasible? Even without Brexit we've always been the least compliant member.

 

[leedswolf]

Which bit do you disagree with?

if it’s “Brexit is what allowed us to handle our vaccine programme differently to the eu.”, what makes you think that if we were still in the EU, we would have been the only country to decline to be part of the pan-eu vaccine programme?

What makes you think that we wouldn't? The UK was fairly bullish about stuff that didn't suit when we were members.

 

[Parkins left foot]

Brexit is what allowed us to handle our vaccine programme differently to the eu.

as you say, the theory is that any eu country could have gone their own way, the practicality of it is that none of them could.

I was reading about Denmark (and Austria) negotiating for Israeli vaccines (eu members are allowed to use any vaccines not licensed as part of the eu vaccination program). As I understand it, the danish government is a coalition and two of the major parties won’t allow that deal until Israel has vaccinated the Palestinians.

in my view, the positive impacts of brexit (the ability to do things outside of a large and cumbersome bloc) are as valid a point of discussion as the other side of things (difficulties in trading with that bloc once we’d left).

Brexit has nothing to do with the vaccinations - all 28 (before we left) could have gone the way we have if they wanted to , as could we if we had voted to stay in.

The 2 issues aren't related.

 

[Premier Quality]

In April, Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands started negotiating with suppliers for vaccines. The likelihood is that we would have been part of that group if we were still in the EU, theoretically getting a good start, but still part of a block that could get a decent deal.

in June, the eu used the eu emergency support instrument to start buying vaccines across the eu

at that point, the European Commission persuaded the four countries that a pan European vaccine programme would enable cheaper deals due to the blocs buying power, and that the eu solidarity was at stake, because if the big eu economies arranged their own deals, the smaller economies would be left behind, and the likelihood is that some of those would be courted by Russia and China with vaccines, further endangering the european project.

that then convinced the four to join in to the eu vaccine programme.

now, it’s theretically possible that at that point we could have said “bollocks, despite being in the eu, and being one of the bigger economies, and probably agreeing with all the arguments made by the eu, having gone through brexit and needing to keep relations in a good place, we’re going our own way”

Theoretically possible - but I don’t really see that being practically possible, in the same way Germany, France, the Netherlands and Italy didn’t see it being practically possible.

other views are of course available - but i would appreciate if those arguments can be as logically put as mine above, rather than just snidey asides.

peace, all.

 

[leedswolf]

In April, Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands started negotiating with suppliers for vaccines. The likelihood is that we would have been part of that group if we were still in the EU, theoretically getting a good start, but still part of a block that could get a decent deal.

in June, the eu used the eu emergency support instrument to start buying vaccines across the eu

at that point, the European Commission persuaded the four countries that a pan European vaccine programme would enable cheaper deals due to the blocs buying power, and that the eu solidarity was at stake, because if the big eu economies arranged their own deals, the smaller economies would be left behind, and the likelihood is that some of those would be courted by Russia and China with vaccines, further endangering the european project.

that then convinced the four to join in to the eu vaccine programme.

now, it’s theretically possible that at that point we could have said “bollocks, despite being in the eu, and being one of the bigger economies, and probably agreeing with all the arguments made by the eu, having gone through brexit and needing to keep relations in a good place, we’re going our own way”

Theoretically possible - but I don’t really see that being practically possible, in the same way Germany, France, the Netherlands and Italy didn’t see it being practically possible.

other views are of course available - but i would appreciate if those arguments can be as logically put as mine above, rather than just snidey asides.

peace, all.

Snidey comments?

Let me make it simple; Hypothesis.

 

[Premier Quality]

Snidey comments?

Let me make it simple; Hypothesis.

And what is yours? im sure you’re capable of more than just criticism, glib remarks and random swearing.

the remain voters on here like to position themselves as superior to the thicky brexiteers, so let’s see some of that intellectual and analytical superiority in action.

If we had stayed in the eu, Why would the UK realistically have stayed out of the EU vaccine programme, given all the things we know about why the other big EU countries went into it, despite lining up their own vaccine supply?

 

[leedswolf]

Perhaps if you were less patronisung, you might get a different reaction? Who knows.

You're trying to convince me and your argument hasn't for the following reasons;

Most obviously, the UK has done nothing that it could not have done as a member of the EU. It was still bound by EU rules when it preordered and approved the Pfizer and OxfordAZ vaccines last year because the UK was still in the Brexit transition period.

We were free to opt out of the EU purchasing programme and buy our own vaccines.

The UK signed it's vaccine procurement during the transition period.

 

[AndyWolves]

It seems to me that whilst we were in the EU we still had the option to go out own way with regards to vaccines. The decision would have been ours as to whether we joined the EU program or not.

After Brexit, I guess we would still have had the option to join the EU program if we wanted to?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

It clearly was because of Brexit that we could go it alone with our vaccine plans. If we were still in the EU we would have gone along with the other 27 (even though we didn’t on a number of issues), it would not have been practically possible because, y’know, France and Germany. No other nation in the world has been able to go it alone on vaccine delivery except all those countries that did.

It’s hard to disagree with PQ on this because his argument isn’t full of holes and half truths.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

And what is yours? im sure you’re capable of more than just criticism, glib remarks and random swearing.

the remain voters on here like to position themselves as superior to the thicky brexiteers, so let’s see some of that intellectual and analytical superiority in action.

If we had stayed in the eu, Why would the UK realistically have stayed out of the EU vaccine programme, given all the things we know about why the other big EU countries went into it, despite lining up their own vaccine supply?

Same reason why don’t have the Euro and aren’t in Schengen. We had a veto and we used it a lot.

 

[Premier Quality]

It clearly was because of Brexit that we could go it alone with our vaccine plans. If we were still in the EU we would have gone along with the other 27 (even though we didn’t on a number of issues), it would not have been practically possible because, y’know, France and Germany. No other nation in the world has been able to go it alone on vaccine delivery except all those countries that did.

It’s hard to disagree with PQ on this because his argument isn’t full of holes and half truths.

Thank you, I appreciate the rational consideration.

this doesn’t mean I think brexit is amazing and perfect by the way, just that there are benefits as well as disbenefits. Anyone who will only see one side is either a fool or deliberately obtuse.

 

[Tredman]

Something which definitely is related to Brexit:

Loyalist terrorists pull their support for Good Friday Agreement over Brexit border in Irish Sea

The organisation representing the views of loyalist paramilitary groups has told Boris Johnson that they are withdrawing their support for the Good Friday Agreement until the Irish Sea border is removed.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

I’m sure there is some way to spin this as a positive, just can’t quite see it yet.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

So let me get this right. You have spent the last however many pages arguing that the vaccine procurement was a clear benefit of Brexit despite there being counter arguments that a) Brexit didn’t afford this opportunity as there were mechanisms for us to exactly as we did while still members of the EU and b) we acted during the transition period when we were still subject to EU rules and auspices which by definition means Brexit had no influence whatsoever.

Surely there must be some other benefits you could list where you could argue a more conclusive case?

 

[Tony Towner]

We were always going to go our own way on vaccines because the procurement process was 4 years after the vote so being part of their programme although feasible wasn't politically likely.

To try and speculate what would have happened if the vote had been remain is impossible, it's 4 years, a remain vote still wouldn't have made us a pro European nation. In theory there would have been a GE mid pandemic although in all likelihood there would have been legislation passed to extend the life of the Parliament, so we have a Tory Government with Cameron as PM. There isn't a time machine that sets us back to 2016 reruns the vote and plays out an alternative scenario, but 52 48 the other way wouldn't have made Farage and Banks go away. Mid pandemic who's to say that there wouldn't have been a big call to go it alone and look after our own?

With Brexit ploughing our own furrow was inevitable, but it is not true to say we only did that because of it or that it wouldn't have happened without it. I can't prove the latter part for all the reasons stated above, but neither can anyone else prove to the contrary. Which is why claiming vaccine success is because of Brexit is somewhat crass.

 

[Johnny75]

I'm not sure sarcasm is picked up that well on the internet.

Kudos for trying TSB.

 

[Premier Quality]

I'm not sure sarcasm is picked up that well on the internet.

Kudos for trying TSB.

I’ve had discussions with TSB before, whilst we tend to be on opposite sides of the argument, he makes his points very well, and doesn’t tend to need to resort to sarcasm.