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Wolves 2-1 Arsenal: Verdict Thread

As Wolves fans I don't think were the ones to be sympathetic to marginal offsides :) and how come Arsenals chances 'should have' been goals but Killmans header isn't viewed as such ?
I'm always sympathetic when it's that marginal no matter the team as I don't think the attacker gains any advantage when it's that close even though it's obviously the correct decision.

Kilmans header was a good chance tbf, and we did have a succession of corners, thought arsenal looked dangerous every time they came forward when it was 11 v 11 though.
 
On reflection this morning

Arsenal we're better than us but didn't / couldn't score until we made an absolute howler defensively

Willian was in on goal and Luiz tried the "tangle of legs" to stop him. I don't buy it was an accident. No way he dived as would have had to have had eyes in the back of his head to pick the absolute perfect time to stumble, plus Luiz fell down too. The laws of the game say it's a red, intent doesn't come into it and he made no attempt to play the ball

Moutinho's goal was special, he is/was a quality player who can do this. The little bit of magic we've been missing.

Leno made a big error, unusual at best but it was the result of wolves pressure.

We then pragmatically saw the game out, not winning from that position is a much bigger risk than going for a 3rd and leaving ourselves open.

Am I drinking the koolaid again?
Intent does matter, the double jeopardy rule is specifically based on intent!

I just think the way it's worded at the moment leaves a gap for what happened last night, the wording highlights a specific get out from the foul deserving a red card based on positive intent to win the ball in attempt to avoid overly punishing an honest attempt at preventing a goal but still carries the deterrent against players who may be tempted to cynically trip an opponent hoping they would miss the resulting penalty. However, I believe last night's incident to be a pure accident from what I've seen of it, and to me that seems to fall into a bit of a grey area, with the current wording there's no attempt to play the ball so the red is right but for me there's no attempt at anything, just bad luck, so it feels unfair to have a player punished as if they had made a cynical professional foul to ruin a goal scoring opportunity.

It's a difficult one to really get into the rules with any clarity though, as someone could easily make a stray run across an attacker with the intent in mind to create that 'accidental' tangle of legs, at which point you've still not got the intent to challenge but it becomes very subjective if someone is making a natural run to get back at a player or running in a way to try and create some sort of obstruction.
 
Intent does matter, the double jeopardy rule is specifically based on intent!

I just think the way it's worded at the moment leaves a gap for what happened last night, the wording highlights a specific get out from the foul deserving a red card based on positive intent to win the ball in attempt to avoid overly punishing an honest attempt at preventing a goal but still carries the deterrent against players who may be tempted to cynically trip an opponent hoping they would miss the resulting penalty. However, I believe last night's incident to be a pure accident from what I've seen of it, and to me that seems to fall into a bit of a grey area, with the current wording there's no attempt to play the ball so the red is right but for me there's no attempt at anything, just bad luck, so it feels unfair to have a player punished as if they had made a cynical professional foul to ruin a goal scoring opportunity.

It's a difficult one to really get into the rules with any clarity though, as someone could easily make a stray run across an attacker with the intent in mind to create that 'accidental' tangle of legs, at which point you've still not got the intent to challenge but it becomes very subjective if someone is making a natural run to get back at a player or running in a way to try and create some sort of obstruction.
I think I'd change the word intent to attempt.

He may not have meant it, but he made no attempt to play the ball. Intent is ambiguous, attempt is a lot less subjective.

Your last paragraph describes exactly what I think Luiz was doing. Accidental or not - we'll never know and I don't think we change the rules to include intent because it's not possible to know what a players intentions are. Only their actions can be judged.
 
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Intent does matter, the double jeopardy rule is specifically based on intent!

I just think the way it's worded at the moment leaves a gap for what happened last night, the wording highlights a specific get out from the foul deserving a red card based on positive intent to win the ball in attempt to avoid overly punishing an honest attempt at preventing a goal but still carries the deterrent against players who may be tempted to cynically trip an opponent hoping they would miss the resulting penalty. However, I believe last night's incident to be a pure accident from what I've seen of it, and to me that seems to fall into a bit of a grey area, with the current wording there's no attempt to play the ball so the red is right but for me there's no attempt at anything, just bad luck, so it feels unfair to have a player punished as if they had made a cynical professional foul to ruin a goal scoring opportunity.

It's a difficult one to really get into the rules with any clarity though, as someone could easily make a stray run across an attacker with the intent in mind to create that 'accidental' tangle of legs, at which point you've still not got the intent to challenge but it becomes very subjective if someone is making a natural run to get back at a player or running in a way to try and create some sort of obstruction.
I agree. It's a red card by the letter of the law, but not in spirit. Having said that the letter of the law/interpretation has shafted us before
 
As Wolves fans I don't think were the ones to be sympathetic to marginal offsides :) and how come Arsenals chances 'should have' been goals but Killmans header isn't viewed as such ?
I think you've got to be able to differentiate between the fact that they were carving us open pretty much at will, from us having a decent chance from a corner, no?

(unrelated the the above) I do think that some people are getting somewhat carried away with yesterday's second half performance. I've seen comments (particularly on the Facebook groups) about how we dominated, we grew in stature, we're back to our best, all that sort of thing. You simply can't judge anything from playing against 9 men. It's really not a difficult thing to do, especially when you're in front.
 
Arteta claiming he's watched it ten times and didn't see any contact.

So why did Luiz stumble and fall over then?

He tripped on his falling hair.

Tbh, that was a shocking way to go about it. If someone is having difficulty seeing contact, they should look at the feet instead of somewhere else.

David Luiz is prone to do these "innocent" looking things only to claim he did nothing.
 
I've seen us struggle against nine men tbf :D

We did play better after half time but that was no kind of bar, the first half was as I said at the time the most disjointed I've seen us since the days of Saunders. Truly horrible.
 
I think you've got to be able to differentiate between the fact that they were carving us open pretty much at will, from us having a decent chance from a corner, no?

(unrelated the the above) I do think that some people are getting somewhat carried away with yesterday's second half performance. I've seen comments (particularly on the Facebook groups) about how we dominated, we grew in stature, we're back to our best, all that sort of thing. You simply can't judge anything from playing against 9 men. It's really not a difficult thing to do, especially when you're in front.

I think it's okay to try and seek some positives out of a second half performance - whether it was against 9 men or 11. We haven't really had much to be positive about recently, and some players did noticeably grow in confidence.
 
I think you've got to be able to differentiate between the fact that they were carving us open pretty much at will, from us having a decent chance from a corner, no?

(unrelated the the above) I do think that some people are getting somewhat carried away with yesterday's second half performance. I've seen comments (particularly on the Facebook groups) about how we dominated, we grew in stature, we're back to our best, all that sort of thing. You simply can't judge anything from playing against 9 men. It's really not a difficult thing to do, especially when you're in front.
I spent the last 15 minutes of last night's game thinking how damaging it would have been had we conceded an equaliser. Thankfully it never really threatened to happen but it would have absolutely crushed them
 
I've seen us struggle against nine men tbf :D

We did play better after half time but that was no kind of bar, the first half was as I said at the time the most disjointed I've seen us since the days of Saunders. Truly horrible.
And hold a lead with nine!
 
I couldn't really care if the winner rebounded off Moutinho's backside after taking a deflection off four Arsenal players, or if we got lucky because Arsenal peppered our goal the entirety of the first half. We needed the win and we got it.
 
Judging what last night's performance means going forwards is nigh on impossible as surely we won't ever play Kilman at left back again, and we're unlikely to face 9 men very often. Hopefully the 3 points boosts confidence, and our luck continues and Vardy is out.
 
I think you've got to be able to differentiate between the fact that they were carving us open pretty much at will, from us having a decent chance from a corner, no?

(unrelated the the above) I do think that some people are getting somewhat carried away with yesterday's second half performance. I've seen comments (particularly on the Facebook groups) about how we dominated, we grew in stature, we're back to our best, all that sort of thing. You simply can't judge anything from playing against 9 men. It's really not a difficult thing to do, especially when you're in front.
I'm not getting carried away with the performance. It's just a building block. They needed (and we did) some sort of result, and a bit of luck to boost confidence. They got both. Nuno, and the players know they were lucky last night, but they also know that they have played much better than that and got zip from a game.
You have to hope that this pushes them on to get better each game.
Leicester will be the test.
As I've been banging on about confidence and belief are massive in any kind of sport, and in life in general. When you have it there is a spring in your step. Without it it's like the world is on your shoulders.
 
I'm no Luiz (or Bednarek) fan but to have the same punishment metered out as for the Jankewitz 'assault' must be galling?
 
Just don't understand what Arsenal are whingeing about, ref/var got all the big decisions right. The off side wasn't marginal imo, one of the clearer offsides var has got right. Definite pen, not much contact but enough to knock him off balance as he was about to pull the trigger and the ref has no alternative but to send him off by the laws of the game......unlucky? Probably but I don't give a fuck, we've had enough go against us. Second red, no-ones disputing that surely?
Arsenal have to look at themselves, in front, totally dominating the game for 40 minutes, then switch off and implode.
Of course we were really lucky for most of the first half but we have to take positives where we can, don't think anyone is getting carried away.
Still huge amounts of work to do. For me we have to persevere with 4-2-3-1 and somehow try and cut out the individual mistakes at the back and manage with the personnel we have for now.
Most important to me is how we play Sunday now. Win, lose or draw we have to put in some kind of half decent performance to try and carry on building confidence. Its a tricky one though if Vardy plays, him getting in behind our back 4 is a bit scarey
 
I'm no Luiz (or Bednarek) fan but to have the same punishment metered out as for the Jankewitz 'assault' must be galling?

It's an odd one and I don't quite understand the rule. If that got given against Boly or Coady I'd be livid.
 
I'm no Luiz (or Bednarek) fan but to have the same punishment metered out as for the Jankewitz 'assault' must be galling?
Suspensions will differ. 3 games for violent conduct, one for denying goal scoring opportunity.
 
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