Israel-Palestine

[prawnking]

Yes.

So why wouldn't you steer clear of all the distasteful tropes it displays? They're pretty interconnected and lead into each other so easily (hence me referring to AS as so insidious earlier).

It's beneath people who are supposed to be progressive. It doesn't mean you can't criticise Israel forcefully either, I fully agree with that criticism!

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I do steer clear of those tropes.

What have I said that is similar to what that image depicts?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I wonder if those members of the IDF who are acting on orders of Netanyahu and snipering the un armed and vulnerable consider how their ancestors may have been picked off by Goth.

 

[prawnking]

I don't think it matters if methods of killing or actions are similar?

A genocide is a genocide.

Then call it a genocide.

Why exactly do you have to invoke the Nazi's, when you know it's controversial and upsetting for a specific racial and religious group, most of whom aren't part of the Israeli command or military?

 

[prawnking]

I do steer clear of those tropes.

What have I said that is similar to what that image depicts?

When I said 'why wouldn't you' I was talking about You in a general sense, as in us all.

But you've already said you don't find it a problematic trope to be invoked?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Then call it a genocide.

Why exactly do you have to invoke the Nazi's, when you know it's controversial and upsetting for a specific racial and religious group?

I don't believe it should be controversial to state the similarity between the actions that Israel/the IDF are undertaking is similar to those that their ancestors/families may have suffered at the hands of the Nazis less than 100 years ago.

The focus should be on those that are committing these atrocious acts, not on those who are calling them out for it.

As i said i agree with those rules you listed. But i don't agree with no.10 at all, it's not logical on any level.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

When I said 'why wouldn't you' I was talking about You in a general sense, as in us all.

But you've already said you don't find it a problematic trope to be invoked?

It's not a trope to state a fact.

The IDF/Isreal are committing acts that are similar to what the Nazis committed.

That isn't a trope.

 

[prawnking]

It's not a trope to state a fact.

The IDF/Isreal are committing acts that are similar to what the Nazis committed.

That isn't a trope.

So you said you avoid the racist tropes, but now there's the caveat; unless you consider it a fact?

So if you considered blood libel or Jewish global control a fact you'd be happy to use those tropes too?

We probably won't see anything on the scale of the Holocaust again (fortunately), at least in our lifetime, it makes it common or garden and unremarkable if you link it to every genocide.

But then you wouldn't, would you? You just reserve it to weaponise against the Jews for this particular conflict, when you could call Israel out just as forcefully without even mentioning the Shoah

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Do you NOT consider it a fact that the IDF/Israel are committing acts that are similar to what the Nazis committed?

 

[prawnking]

As I've said, you can call their acts genocidal all you like, if you're gonna start swapping out the Star of David for the Swastika like some edgelord, in spite of what I've said, then it's up to you to provide a big detailed list of their equivalences to a pretty distinctive and evil regime, and for a start 60k v 6 mill doesn't cut it, and I don't recall Jews in the 30's attacking and butchering Germans to start World War II either

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Israel are committing genocide, the most famous genocide of all time (and in relatively recent history) was committed by the Nazis.

I fear that if you don't get that by now, you never will.

EP, there are two things here. First, it is an argument that you won't ever win with PK. And second, he is correct.

My first real exposure to anti-racist activism was with the anti-nazis...and subsequently the experiences of Jewish people at the hands (and guns) of the Nazis. For many reasons, there are many horrors associated with Nazi Germany that need to remain firmly and squarely with that regime forever. Equating Nazis with any other regime, in my opinion, diminishes the evil that was the Nazis. It is also a lazy trope that is overused to describe anything from genocide to traffic wardens.

I don't think it is, in isolation, a signal that someone is anti semitic and I would never assume that it's use is an indicator that the user is anti semitic and i do have concerns that it is included in the definition. I also have concerns that allegations of anti semitism are often used incorrectly to deflect criticism of Israel.

Israel is a far right, nationalist government with a stated policy of removing a population from an area they claim as their own. They enact this policy through immense force that has caused the death of many 10s of thousands, made 100s of thousands destitute and creating conditions where life is not safe. There are reports of people being settled into small areas and shot dead. More and more people are expressing concern that the acts of the Israeli government are illegal (at best) and genocide (at worst).

All of this can be said without ever having to reach for the N word.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

As I've said, you can call their acts genocidal all you like, if you're gonna start swapping out the Star of David for the Swastika like some edgelord, in spite of what I've said, then it's up to you to provide a big detailed list of their equivalences to a pretty distinctive and evil regime, and for a start 60k v 6 mill doesn't cut it, and I don't recall Jews in the 30's attacking and butchering Germans to start World War II either

I didn't think you'd answer that question.

And i thought you'd misrepresent what i said regarding the Star of David too, so here we are.

It's funny you mention the quantity of deaths too.

 

[prawnking]

Agree with all that, I also don't think the IHRA definitions are completely unproblematic, or that Israel and Netanyahu are above a cynical use of AS claims. I do think those tropes should be avoided though, as I'd prefer the argument was won cleanly?

 

[pavlosmacwolf]

I don't believe it should be controversial to state the similarity between the actions that Israel/the IDF are undertaking is similar to those that their ancestors/families may have suffered at the hands of the Nazis less than 100 years ago.

The focus should be on those that are committing these atrocious acts, not on those who are calling them out for it.

As i said i agree with those rules you listed. But i don't agree with no.10 at all, it's not logical on any level.

There are no similarities between what the nazis did to jews, gypsies and mentally disabled people, which was mechanised murder, with any other act of genocide in modern history, including our own black hole of calcutta.
Netanyahu has an individual desire to rid israel of it's palestinian neighbours, and he uses the holocsaust as his justification for everything he does.
You, proudly quoting their current genocidal actions as related in anyway to the holocaust simply plays into netanyshu's hands, thus offering a round about justification for his own version of genocide.
You really are not as smart as you think you are, are you.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

There are no similarities between what the nazis did to jews, gypsies and mentally disabled people, which was mechanised murder, with any other act of genocide in modern history, including our own black hole of calcutta.
Netanyahu has an individual desire to rid israel of it's palestinisn neighbours, and he uses the holocsust as his justification for everything he does.
You, proudly quoting their current genocidal actions as related in anyway to the holocaust simply plays into netanyshu's hands, thus offering a round about justification for his own version of genocide.
You really are not as smart as you think you are, are you.

I have a stated a particular instance where the IDF/Israel have acted in a way that is similar to what the Nazis did, that particularly snipering of un armed, completely innocent vulnerable people is going on right now. I'm not "proudly" quoting anything, i am stating a fact, not an opinion, anyone can see that this (amongst other things) is a similar act.

Making the point about a specific action or actions being similar to the Nazis, is not in any way meaning that the what Israel is doing is on the same scale as what the Nazis did, you'd have to be pretty stupid to think that, but that's exactly what i am being told i am thinking.

That no.10 point is dangerous, as proven today. As instead of the actual act being called out as the disgusting inhuman awfulness it is, the conversation switches to how we should worry about the semantics and words used instead and i get told i'm anti sematic by PK and now stupid by you.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

... thus offering a round about justification for his own version of genocide.

Go on then, explain how it could ever justify that?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

EP, there are two things here. First, it is an argument that you won't ever win with PK. And second, he is correct.

My first real exposure to anti-racist activism was with the anti-nazis...and subsequently the experiences of Jewish people at the hands (and guns) of the Nazis. For many reasons, there are many horrors associated with Nazi Germany that need to remain firmly and squarely with that regime forever. Equating Nazis with any other regime, in my opinion, diminishes the evil that was the Nazis. It is also a lazy trope that is overused to describe anything from genocide to traffic wardens.

I don't think it is, in isolation, a signal that someone is anti semitic and I would never assume that it's use is an indicator that the user if anti semitic and i do have concerns that it is included in the definition. I also have concerns that allegations of anti semitism are often used incorrectly to deflect criticism of Israel.

Israel is a far right, nationalist government with a stated policy of removing a population from an area they claim as their own. They enact this policy through immense force that has caused the death of many 10s of thousands, made 100s of thousands destitute and creating conditions where life is not unsafe. There are reports of people being settled into small areas and shot dead. More and more people are expressing concern that the acts of the Israeli government are illegal (at best) and genocide (at worst).

All of this can be said without ever having to reach for the N word.

Just shows how ridiculous this all is, that i wholeheartedly agree with the vast majority of that, but PK "loves" it, who is constantly calling me AS, racist and stupid.

Go figure.

 

[prawnking]

Just shows how ridiculous this all is, that i wholeheartedly agree with the vast majority of that, but PK "loves" it, who is constantly calling me AS, racist and stupid.

Go figure.

Of course, no victim of the current Israel-Palestine conflict or the Holocaust itself can ever compare with the greatest victim of all - you...

I'm truly sorry I called you stupid on an internet forum once, 18 months ago. You can stop banging on about it now

I 'loved' TSB's post because it was engaging, insightful and even-handed, is that OK?

I also agree with some of your position, as I stated earlier

 

[jd1981]

Just shows how ridiculous this all is, that i wholeheartedly agree with the vast majority of that, but PK "loves" it, who is constantly calling me AS, racist and stupid.

Go figure.

I’ll kindly refer you to post 1,984 of this thread which you’ve still not amended. False accusations are not nice I agree.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Of course, no victim of the current Israel-Palestine conflict or the Holocaust itself can ever compare with the greatest victim of all - you...

I'm truly sorry I called you stupid on an internet forum once, 18 months ago. You can stop banging on about it now

I 'loved' TSB's post because it was engaging, insightful and even-handed, is that OK?

I also agree with some of your position, as I stated earlier

Actually, you do it most days during this type of discussion, particularly when you are unable to answer simple questions. I point it out, because you did it again the other day on the Starmer thread, but then today called people uneducated etc regarding this matter.

I mention it because of your hypocrisy, not because i cry at night into my pillow about it.