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Israel-Palestine

visage said:
Mass murder is a choice.
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It is. Weirdly, though, our choices are often defined by the environment in which they are made, and when mass murder has been perpetrated against your people, it creates the opportunity to meet violence with violence in a way that feels justified.

Equally, Israel have been choosing genocide since 1948. But they get a pass.
 
Is Israel a product of it's environment then?

We can excuse their actions in Gaza because they feel under threat?
 
Alan said:
It's not just rubble Israel are smashing; waiting for them to get "bored" with mass murder is complicity.

The idea that Hamas formed in a vacuum and not as a result of Israel's decades-long policy of murder, forced eviction, and kidnapping (without even trying to pretend that anything like due process was involved) needs to die. To pretend that Hamas are the original aggressor is simply not aligned with reality.

If you say Hamas shouldn't exist (they shouldn't), you must also grapple with Israel's history of terrorism/genocide in Gaza that precedes Hamas by 40 years, beginning with the Nakba of 1948, the same year Israel declared its sovereignty.

Israel has been a malicious belligerent from inception.
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Not to forget that Israel literally helped grow Hamas in order to split and destroy the secular PLO.
 
visage said:
Is Israel a product of it's environment then?

We can excuse their actions in Gaza because they feel under threat?
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No, that is why power imbalances are so important. Israel are the power in the region, whether through themselves or their allies (who apparently should just maintain the status quo because only a perfect solution is worth trying, I guess). This is the difference; the environment is created by the holders of power. Israel have zero legitimate threats to their existence.

Since you turned my argument around on me, I'll ask you a second time to answer the same. Why does Israel's 80 year decision to murder and evict every Arab in Gaza get a pass?
 
EdgeOfTheAlps said:
Not to forget that Israel literally helped grow Hamas in order to split and destroy the secular PLO.
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A tactic that has worked so well for the US... Wait, no, it's actually been a disaster in almost every case and leaves the local population in far worse conditions than during the regime that was undermined and overthrown. The exact sorts of conditions that allow radicalization to take root on a scale that can support organization and command structures.
 
Alan said:
No, that is why power imbalances are so important. Israel are the power in the region, whether through themselves or their allies (who apparently should just maintain the status quo because only a perfect solution is worth trying, I guess). This is the difference; the environment is created by the holders of power. Israel have zero legitimate threats to their existence.

Since you turned my argument around on me, I'll ask you a second time to answer the same. Why does Israel's 80 year decision to murder and evict every Arab in Gaza get a pass?
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Israel was founded after a certain German chap murdered six million Jews. In it's eighty year existence it's been almost perpetually threatened by every single one if it's neighbours, and has been through several existential conflicts.

The idea that Israel has had no threats to its existence is laughable.
 
Absolute bollocks when Israel have the largest military force in the world backing them (and by far the most advanced military equipment in the region). Also the nukes the US gave them. And the "Iron Dome". Coalitions of Arab countries have tried (and spectacularly failed) to reclaim the territory now called Israel.

The creation of Israel was not a direct result of the Holocaust. The Holocaust did create an environment in which the burden of creating a new state could be shunted out of the pocketbooks of the US, UK, etc., and placed almost entirely on Germany. Fair enough, but that money could have gone to literally anything that would have benefitted the global Jewish community. Displacing the (very not German) Arabs already living in what is now called Israel did not need to be part of those reparations.

There are no threats to Israel's existence as long as the West allows and funds the genocide of a people who had NOTHING to do with the Holocaust.

Within a single year of Israel declaring independence, 700,000 Palestinians were forcibly evicted from their homes. Zionism immediately took the position that the crimes done against Jews by the Nazis excuse Israel of doing the same, building the narrative that Israel faced real existential threats that were always nothing more than smoke and mirrors. The Six Day War should be evidence enough of this; ~17,000 casualties suffered by the coalition of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan, to just ~700 suffered by Israel.
 
And why do you think Israel has made a conscious decision to assemble such a powerful military?

To deter its neighbours, perhaps?

If Israel didnt have that then we would have seen a second Shoah by now - the kind of genocide that people are seemingly against.
 
Probably because the creation of Israel was an invasion. Weird that you'd need guns to hold onto land someone else stole for you. Weirder that said guns were then immediately put to use murdering Palestinians. Most bizarre is that a state facing existential threats has never seen any of its territory taken by force, in fact it has expanded its borders. Weird!

You deal in hypotheticals, I'm dealing in the actual history that occurred. Stop using strawmen to prop up your argument.
 
visage said:
And why do you think Israel has made a conscious decision to assemble such a powerful military?

To deter its neighbours, perhaps?

If Israel didnt have that then we would have seen a second Shoah by now - the kind of genocide that people are seemingly against.
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Israel has been threatened since day 1 because it shouldn't be there.
 
Well I guess we'd better get cracking on inventing time travel then.

Or, and hear me out here, we stop justifying mass murder on the basis that someone, somewhere, got a bit pissed off at something that happened in the past and cannot be undone.
 
Alan said:
No, that is why power imbalances are so important. Israel are the power in the region, whether through themselves or their allies (who apparently should just maintain the status quo because only a perfect solution is worth trying, I guess). This is the difference; the environment is created by the holders of power. Israel have zero legitimate threats to their existence.

Since you turned my argument around on me, I'll ask you a second time to answer the same. Why does Israel's 80 year decision to murder and evict every Arab in Gaza get a pass?
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Not very successful decision if it's took them 80 years and still not got the job done.
Amateurs.
 
visage said:
Well I guess we'd better get cracking on inventing time travel then.

Or, and hear me out here, we stop justifying mass murder on the basis that someone, somewhere, got a bit pissed off at something that happened in the past and cannot be undone.
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What about if states carry it out?
 
Alan said:
It's not just rubble Israel are smashing; waiting for them to get "bored" with mass murder is complicity.

The idea that Hamas formed in a vacuum and not as a result of Israel's decades-long policy of murder, forced eviction, and kidnapping (without even trying to pretend that anything like due process was involved) needs to die. To pretend that Hamas are the original aggressor is simply not aligned with reality.

If you say Hamas shouldn't exist (they shouldn't), you must also grapple with Israel's history of terrorism/genocide in Gaza that precedes Hamas by 40 years, beginning with the Nakba of 1948, the same year Israel declared its sovereignty.

Israel has been a malicious belligerent from inception.
Click to expand...
Alan, that´s a very well considered post. Good on yer!
 
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