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Israel-Palestine

Israel aren't fighting terrorism. They're killing civilians as revenge. It's pointless death. It achieves nothing at all. They're not killing soldiers or terrorists, save for a a small percentage that may as well be accidental as well as incidental.

Time will tell? If it's not obvious now then it never will be. They're indiscriminately flattening hospitals, residential buildings, schools and refugee camps, using the full might of one of the world's most well funded armies against an open air prison. Fish in a barrel.

People keep saying its revenge for October 7th without ever accepting that October 7th *was* the revenge. This is Israel making sure their foot remains on the throat of Gazans, that the rats know their place and don't try and fight back again. Just take their beatings and their slither of land and the killings and denial of resources and say and do nothing for fear of reprisals 20 times stronger and more damaging
Not sure it's killing civilians as revenge, more that they've accepted that there's an acceptable level of civilian collateral damage in the quest to annihilate Hamas. Obviously this won't work out.
I'm at the stage where I don't how this conflict can be resolved in a reasonable way.
 
Israel aren't fighting terrorism. They're killing civilians as revenge. It's pointless death. It achieves nothing at all. They're not killing soldiers or terrorists, save for a a small percentage that may as well be accidental as well as incidental.

Time will tell? If it's not obvious now then it never will be. They're indiscriminately flattening hospitals, residential buildings, schools and refugee camps, using the full might of one of the world's most well funded armies against an open air prison. Fish in a barrel.

People keep saying its revenge for October 7th without ever accepting that October 7th *was* the revenge. This is Israel making sure their foot remains on the throat of Gazans, that the rats know their place and don't try and fight back again. Just take their beatings and their slither of land and the killings and denial of resources and say and do nothing for fear of reprisals 20 times stronger and more damaging

With respect, this seems like a very one-sided, inflammatory and simplistic analysis on one of the most complex geopolitical situations there is from someone who, the other day, was confusing religion and race.

A lot of people on here sound suspiciously like they have all the answers, but from a very one sided point of view that excludes Israeli and Jewish opinion and action. There's so much misinformation out there I think we should all be wary of being as confident as you are about who is being killed, who is Hamas and who isn't. Where exactly are you getting this information from? Hamas literally have built a military base under a hospital, a war crime in itself, incidentally.

Israel most definitely need holding to account for any action that breaches wartime convention, but you can't compare what they are doing now, however reckless we might think it is, during wartime, to what happened on 7th October: the literal targeting of civilians, rape and infanticide.

The obvious concern many people have (Israelis and Jews especially, as well as most Western governments), is that a ceasefire, while it all sounds lovely, is likely to just emboldened Hamas and give them time to regroup and potentially commit a similar atrocity.

Would you be happy with that if you were a Jew living in this country with family in Israel?

One more question: we have a ceasefire tomorrow (that neither side wants, a fact in my first post that you ignored) then. What's your solution to ending the conflict permanently? I presume Hamas surrendering and the hostages (remember them, anyone?) being released is Step One?
 
I should point out that Israel have been in breach of the Geneva convention on treatment of citizens of an occupied territory since before I was born and I am no spring chicken.
 
. Where exactly are you getting this information from? Hamas literally have built a military base under a hospital, a war crime in itself, incidentally.
Incidently this hasn't been verified and the "proof" that Israel have provided is a million miles from what they suggested was actually the case, at least so far.

You're telling people their opinion is one sided and asking where they get their info from whilst quoting unverified one sided info yourself.

 
If you think a few Kalashnikovs and laptops is proof of a command centre you’re not looking objectively.
 
Incidently this hasn't been verified and the "proof" that Israel have provided is a million miles from what they suggested was actually the case, at least so far.

You're telling people their opinion is one sided and asking where they get their info from whilst quoting unverified one sided info yourself.


You've been quite happy quoting Hamas death toll figures, who verifies them?

Are you saying Hamas don't have their military infrastructure (deliberately) woven into civilian areas?
 
You've been quite happy quoting Hamas death toll figures, who verifies them?

Are you saying Hamas don't have their military infrastructure (deliberately) woven into civilian areas?
I'm saying you are keen to tell other people they are talking bollocks, but happy to suggest everything you say is fact, and you're quite patronising with it.

IDF had said there was a deep military basecamp underneath that hospital and had used that as justification for turning off supplies and attacking it, then as per that clip they provide a few guns and computers as evidence. But you have taken that as gospel and use it an argument telling Del he's talking bobbins.
 
The obvious concern many people have (Israelis and Jews especially, as well as most Western governments), is that a ceasefire, while it all sounds lovely, is likely to just emboldened Hamas and give them time to regroup and potentially commit a similar atrocity.
"a ceasefire sounds lovely" as you sarcastically put it, yes I imagine it does the thousands living in fear day in day out, what a cold way of dismissing it.

So basically you believe Israel should just carry on, to what end? Until there are no Gazans left in Gaza? What is their end point? At what point do they say they've "eradicated" Hamas? In a month? A year? 10 years? Where does it end exactly?
 
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With respect, this seems like a very one-sided, inflammatory and simplistic analysis on one of the most complex geopolitical situations there is from someone who, the other day, was confusing religion and race.

A lot of people on here sound suspiciously like they have all the answers, but from a very one sided point of view that excludes Israeli and Jewish opinion and action. There's so much misinformation out there I think we should all be wary of being as confident as you are about who is being killed, who is Hamas and who isn't. Where exactly are you getting this information from? Hamas literally have built a military base under a hospital, a war crime in itself, incidentally.

Israel most definitely need holding to account for any action that breaches wartime convention, but you can't compare what they are doing now, however reckless we might think it is, during wartime, to what happened on 7th October: the literal targeting of civilians, rape and infanticide.

The obvious concern many people have (Israelis and Jews especially, as well as most Western governments), is that a ceasefire, while it all sounds lovely, is likely to just emboldened Hamas and give them time to regroup and potentially commit a similar atrocity.

Would you be happy with that if you were a Jew living in this country with family in Israel?

One more question: we have a ceasefire tomorrow (that neither side wants, a fact in my first post that you ignored) then. What's your solution to ending the conflict permanently? I presume Hamas surrendering and the hostages (remember them, anyone?) being released is Step One?

It's a bit reductive to say I confused religion with race, the point was clear. If Palestinians were white Christians then this wouldn't be happening, and the two state solution would've been sorted decades ago, or more likely a solution less favourable to the Jewish people.

Yes, numbers can be taken with a pinch of salt, but we're clearly looking at at least 5 Palestinians for every victim of the Hamas attack. If the majority of those were active terrorists, then we'd have seen far more frequent and deadly attacks on Israel, surely?

Strange how every hospital they've targeted, every refugee camp, every caravan of refugees, every residential building, have all been Hamas bases, or housed senior Hamas officials. Evidence has been in short supply, and credibility is often on the levels of 'Comical Ali', but so little of it has been questioned. The strategy of using a chainsaw instead of a scalpel to weed out Hamas is just left to run. The massive civilian loss - literally thousands of children, by anybody's figures - immaterial to Western politicians and media.

Every single war ever, has ended because of peace talks and a pen and paper - or because one side has obliterated the other. Politicians need to choose which one is acceptable, because Israel isn't going to stop until there's either political pressure from the West, or military pressure from the East. And if it's the latter, then the stakes are upped to either peace, or a world war.

Long term the solution needs to be a genuine two state resolution, with land compromises by Israel. UN peace keeping with regular inspections, probably for decades.

I've said previously - and don't feel the need predicate every post with the same - that what Hamas did on October 7th was appalling and inexcusable, and they need to be stopped and brought to justice. But I absolutely object to ordinary Palestinians paying the price for their crimes, whether it's as deliberate revenge, unavoidable consequence, or accidental collateral damage.
 
I'm saying you are keen to tell other people they are talking bollocks, but happy to suggest everything you say is fact, and you're quite patronising with it.

IDF had said there was a deep military basecamp underneath that hospital and had used that as justification for turning off supplies and attacking it, then as per that clip they provide a few guns and computers as evidence. But you have taken that as gospel and use it an argument telling Del he's talking bobbins.

I haven't said Del or anyone else is 'talking bollocks', the direct quote is 'There's so much misinformation out there I think we should all be wary', that applies to me too, as there's misinformation on both sides, and what seems like verifiable info from decent sources can quickly turn around and then back again.

I suspect in many scenarios we won't know the truth until independent international verification has happened (as with Syria)
 
"a ceasefire sounds lovely" as you sarcastically put it, yes I imagine it does the thousands living in fear day in day out, what a cold way of dismissing it.

So basically you believe Israel should just carry on, to what end? Until there are no Gazans left in Gaza? What is their end point? At what point do they say they've "eradicated" Hamas? In a month? A year? 10 years? Where does it end exactly?

The sarcasm is clearly aimed at those in the West who believe a ceasefire is simple, acheivable and even desirable by the combatants.


How about you answer my questions then I'll answer yours;

Are you saying Hamas don't have their military infrastructure (deliberately) woven into civilian areas?

Let's say a ceasefire happens right now. What's your solution to ending the conflict permanently? I presume Hamas surrendering and the hostages (remember them, anyone?) being released is Step One?
 
what Hamas did on October 7th was appalling and inexcusable, and they need to be stopped and brought to justice. But I absolutely object to ordinary Palestinians paying the price for their crimes, whether it's as deliberate revenge, unavoidable consequence, or accidental collateral damage.

So what's your solution?
 
I know I'm well regarded but I'm probably not the best placed human to to solve one of modern history's longest running and bloodiest disputes, but I'll have a stab for the sport. You're welcome to skip reading it and just go straight to calling me naive or one sided though.



*immediate ceasefire, withdrawal of troops, opening up of aid routes, release of all female and u18 hostages

*commitment to meaningful negotiations on two state solution with UN as mediator/arbitor. Hamas and IDF agree to be monitored by UN. Release of all remaining hostages should talks be meaningful and ceasefire hold. Should Hamas attack, then a surgical process to take them out by UN forces. Should IDF attack, then genuinely crippling sanctions

*fair distribution of land and natural resources, reparation payments agreed to rebuild a free Palestine. UN peacekeeping forces remain in place until new states demonstrate they can live together in peace.
 
A ceasefire is maybe the right solution, but my bet, with no piss taking involved is that it wouldn't last 3 days.
 
I know I'm well regarded but I'm probably not the best placed human to to solve one of modern history's longest running and bloodiest disputes, but I'll have a stab for the sport.

I mean, if people are saying a ceasefire is the obvious thing to do and anyone not agreeing is spineless, etc, then it's fair to ask what that looks like?

If we're acknowledging how tricky it is then we should acknowledge that it's also difficult for the political players involved.

So you'd be happy with Hamas, a terrorist group who have deliberately targeted and visited unspeakable horrors on Israeli civilians and babies that I won't repeat on here, and have explicitly talked about a Jew genocide, retaining control of Gaza, rather than a moderate and democratically elected group?

And you expect Israeli citizens, those who lost loved ones and Jews around the world to be happy with this?
 
I mean, if people are saying a ceasefire is the obvious thing to do and anyone not agreeing is spineless, etc, then it's fair to ask what that looks like?

If we're acknowledging how tricky it is then we should acknowledge that it's also difficult for the political players involved.

So you'd be happy with Hamas, a terrorist group who have deliberately targeted and visited unspeakable horrors on Israeli civilians and babies that I won't repeat on here, and have explicitly talked about a Jew genocide, retaining control of Gaza, rather than a moderate and democratically elected group?

And you expect Israeli citizens, those who lost loved ones and Jews around the world to be happy with this?
To counter, you are happy with the state of Isreal bombing the shit out of the entirety of Palestine because a small number of terrorists carried out an unspeakably awful attack over a month ago?

I'm glad you weren't in charge when a small number of mindless IRA terrorists were bombing Belfast, Derry and parts of the mainland UK... The pictures of tanks and aircraft bombing shit out of the Falls Road would have been quite the sight.

Your posts seem to spare no thought for the innocent Palestinians caught up in all of this...
 
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I mean, if people are saying a ceasefire is the obvious thing to do and anyone not agreeing is spineless, etc, then it's fair to ask what that looks like?

If we're acknowledging how tricky it is then we should acknowledge that it's also difficult for the political players involved.

So you'd be happy with Hamas, a terrorist group who have deliberately targeted and visited unspeakable horrors on Israeli civilians and babies that I won't repeat on here, and have explicitly talked about a Jew genocide, retaining control of Gaza, rather than a moderate and democratically elected group?

And you expect Israeli citizens, those who lost loved ones and Jews around the world to be happy with this?
Tbh there's very little between the actions of Hamas and the IDF. There may be methodological differences but a dead baby is a dead baby. A dead civilian Jew is as upsetting as a dead civilian Muslim

One's a terrorist group whilst the other is a nation state army with half the world's politicians and press behind them. Once upon a time, the CIA labelled Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda as freedom fighters rather than terrorists. Nelson Mandela the reverse.

For the avoidance of doubt, the killing of civilians is indefensible, and of course, I'd rather a more moderate group be democratically elected in a free Palestine. I expect most civilians in Israel and Palestine want peace rather than a cycle of death and fear.
 
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