Live Match Discussion 2024/25

[Alan]

I don't see it as arrogance to be critical of the CWC, it's more apathy.

And that apathy wasn't peculiar to the UK, it was the same apathy that permeated through to the broadcasters... no one was interested.

The only reason there is a broadcaster is due to Saudi pumping $1 billion in to DAZN, the exact same figure that DAZN paid for the broadcast rights, which bizarrely coincided with Saudi being awarded the World Cup for 2034

Being critical of the CWC was never the issue, it was "Auckland shouldn't be here". In the wake of the ESL being so universally reviled, it feels incredibly dissonant to then say that certain sides are so obviously inferior that they shouldn't be involved, which to me is really not that far removed from what the ESL wants/wanted to be.

@Paddingtonwolf has just laid out a lot of very valid, important criticisms that really should be addressed, if we lived in a world where football's governing body gave a shit. Particularly the points about summer in the US and the scheduling. I agree with the point about European sides not wanting to take risks with players, though I can also argue that that is a kick in the teeth to every non-Euro club involved as it can easily be read as disrespectful or dismissive (or both) of the quality of the clubs from outside Europe. And of course, by not going at 100% they get the benefit of writing off any loss as because of that.

It's all very "this football is mine and only I get to say when I actually lost".

 

[jd1981]

Did I look down my nose at Portugal when they won the Nations League for the way they celebrated? No.

Do I cringe every time I hear that we must have an English national team manager, or that we invented football and that has some bearing on things now. Yes.

Well this is interesting don’t think I saw to much criticism of Portugal winning the nations league and celebrations.
Again who nowadays goes around with entitlement because we invented the game?
The want for an English is a much concern for there not being enough English managers progressing.
Trust me if the top nations can’t find a head coach from within their borders there would be similar concern.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I did, both online and amongst friends and acquaintances. The general attitude towards the Nations League is arrogant too.

Depends who/what you are listening to i guess. But the arrogance around Southgate's England about the types of teams he beat was deafening and still is. There is an entitlement, that comes from what exactly if it isnt that we invented the game?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Yes, all of that is valid Alan.

If you had an eight team tournament, with Libertadores, Champions League, African Champions League, Asian Champions League, Concacaf Champion and Oceania champion joined by the champion team of the host country and one other by whatever merit system they set up (which would be unlikely to be Red Bull bloody Salzburg) then it is much more manageable in the schedule.

You have only one team affected by the problem I outlined so we can keep Boxing Day for everyone else bar them and the team they play. After Covid, teams were given late starts (bar us, fucking FA wankers) so there is precedent for making an exception to make the calendar work. Not that it should really be needed as an eight team tournament could be done and dusted in eight days. And you have the best of each continent battling it out, so there is some real interest.

The qualification criteria to flab out the field for this jamboree is an issue. Note that under my idea above, Auckland City would still be in as Champions of Oceania. They aren't the problem. The problem is six South American sides, and what feels like far too many UEFA sides.

There is apathy from the teams. There is apathy from the American public as a lot of the games have woeful attendances. There is apathy from a lot of world media (I can only speak about here at the moment, but it is last element mentioned on the sports bulletins, somewhat behind netball, which might change if an Australian team was present I suppose). There is apathy from the fans of the teams who seem to see it as a glorified and glutonously fattened pre-season friendly tourney.

It is wholly poorly-thought out. But it is Infantino's baby, so it will stay for the duration. Especially as his pockets will be getting massively lined,

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Also, why does it matter if the manager is English or not?

English manager progress isnt an issue if the national manager doesn't have to be English?

The sort of people that worry about that promote the idea that GON or Howe, or Hoddle or Curbishley back in the day were far better than they were.

 

[Tredman]

Also, why does it matter if the manager is English or not?

English manager progress isnt an issue if the national manager doesn't have to be English?

The sort of people that worry about that promote the idea that GON or Howe, or Hoddle or Curbishley back in the day we're far better than they were.

What are you on about?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

The want for an English is a much concern for there not being enough English managers progressing.
Trust me if the top nations can’t find a head coach from within their borders there would be similar concern.

Was a response to this Tredman.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I think that is conflating "we invented the game" arrogance with Little Englander "no Johnny Foreigner" attitudes. There is a venn diagram section where those two points of view align in some people, but I don't think it fits with the argument here about this tournament.

 

[jd1981]

I did, both online and amongst friends and acquaintances. The general attitude towards rhe Nations League is arrogant too.

Depends who/what you are listening to i guess. But the arrogance around Southgate's England about the types of teams he beat was deafening and still is. There is an entitlement, that comes from what exactly if it isnt that we invented the game?

The “Southgate doesn’t beat anyone decent” stuff often comes from fans of countries who want to see England fail ie Scotland, Wales and ROI in an attempt to diminish the fact England aren’t that bad anymore.
The “my mate said” or “ I saw an online post”
Stuff isn’t hard evidence either you need something more substantial.
Again if England had such apathy to the nations league you would see crowds of around 20-30k at Wembley but it’s pretty full every time.
England fans on the whole were pretty angry with the sides efforts in the 2022 Nations League.
Goes back to the footballing myth that England fans expect to win every tournament, they absolutely don’t you just have to look on here every tournament to see it.
What gets England fans irksome is seeing players being nowhere near their club form for England.
Huge difference between thinking you have a chance and being expectant.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

What!? Have you been living under a rock.

The "Southgate didn't beat anyone decent" thing has massively been pushed by the press, people on here and is/was everywhere!?

You saying you havent heard people sneering at Portugal isn’t hard evidence either?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

When Portugal won their first Nations League what I remember was people saying that the tournament was actually bloody refreshing and miles better than having shite international friendlies in those years where there was no tournament or qualifying cycle.

 

[jd1981]

What!? Have you been living under a rock.

The "Southgate didn't beat anyone decent" thing has massively been pushed by the press, people on here and is/was everywhere!?

You saying you havent heard people sneering at Portugal isn’t hard evidence either?

Well explain how you evidence something that you’ve not seen or heard?

It wasn’t a massive press push to label Southgate as a flat track bully.
Southgate on the whole was treated pretty fairly by the press most the time, he was rightly questioned in 2022 when he got us relegated.
A few comments here and there from the press about level of opposition beat plus some England fans but certainly not an overwhelming majority to a point you can label everyone as expectant and arrogant.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Southgate's run to a World Cup semi final might not have had to beat a global giant, but neither did Bobby Robson's to be fair.

Both managers beat what was put in front of them, and Robson was fortunate to get past Cameroon.

Give it a few years and I think Southgate's reign will be looked back on with a bit more fondness. I just wish he had gone for it when leading against both Croatia and Italy.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Well i disagree JD, I feel that whenever we did beat traditionally good sides (Germany) the argument would be that they were shit, and if we did lose to traditionally sides (Italy) it would be that we should have beaten them because they were shit also.

I feel that was entitlement, along with the expectation that we should just expect to get to finals and semi finals as if its something that always went on in the past.

There are dozens of discussions about it on here as an example, let alone in the press, radio or social media.

 

[jd1981]

Feeling was euphoric after the Germany win if I remember and felt a big deal. Again the “Germany were shit” stuff comes from rival fans more than anyone

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

It wasn't a great German side, but it still had to be beaten. England have had plenty of problems with that in the past so it was a good result, for sure.

 

[Alan]

I miss the Confederation’s Cup. Good format, if brutal to qualify for.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Feeling was euphoric after the Germany win if I remember and felt a big deal. Again the “Germany were shit” stuff comes from rival fans more than anyone

Im sorry mate, I just dont agree.

Yes, euphoria in the moment, but it didnt take long at all for fans to change the narrative even about those clearly good results.

 

[Alan]

It wasn't a great German side, but it still had to be beaten. England have had plenty of problems with that in the past so it was a good result, for sure.

Gotta take the Ws ay? I wish we could be positive like that more often. If you go back and look at reactions to each and every goal Wolves conceded last season, I’d bet that 99% of comments are about how the defense fucked up rather than how the opposition did well. Obviously some of those will have been accurate; not saying there’s never any blame to be handed out.

Guilty of that, myself, to be absolutely clear. High emotion and all that.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Give it a few years and I think Southgate's reign will be looked back on with a bit more fondness.

I hope so.

The criticism he was getting last year was incredibly hostile, we got to the final for God's sake.