Trump

[prawnking]

It's sweet that you think they'll actually have an election in 4 years if this administration carries on unchallenged. And it's sweet that you believe having the choice between 2 broken political choices is really democracy.

I'm not sure you're on safe footing to patronise anyone when your arguments have the depth of a 16 year old who just listened to their first Clash album.

I'm not saying they should carry on unchallenged, I'm saying you go through democratic means initially, not leap straight to gleefully advocating another country bypassing political process after 3 months of a government you don't like.

 

[Alan]

I'm not sure you're on safe footing to patronise anyone when your arguments have the depth of a 16 year old who just listened to their first Clash album.

“Just vote him out” is not really a more nuanced alternative.

 

[prawnking]

And, honestly, I don’t think many of my fellow leftists are really capable of violent revolution, myself included. I’d be almost as out of place in a group of true revolutionaries as I would be in the USMC.

I will say, though, that there have been some quiet noises being made that certain circles of American leftism are setting gun control to the side until this is over. Whether that’s in the name of self-defense or proactive resistance, I don’t know. But I can’t deny I’ve been having the same thought. If they come for me, I don’t want to go quietly.

If I were an American, I'd want MAGA defeated by argument, political persuasion, passion, patience and a compelling vision to convince my fellow citizens, rather than leap to hollow talk of violent revolution before Trump has been in the White House 10 weeks.

That means non-MAGA politics has lost the argument, surely?

 

[prawnking]

“Just vote him out” is not really a more nuanced alternative.

You don't think democracy and fighting for your country politically within the boundaries of the law and your cherished constitution is a more nuanced alternative??

 

[Alan]

I'm not saying they should carry on unchallenged, I'm saying you go through democratic means initially, not leap straight to gleefully advocating another country bypassing political process after 3 months of a government you don't like.

They’ve literally deported people with no criminal records to a Salvadoran mega-prison (whose standard practices would make Abu-Ghraib blush) with absolutely zero due process and violating the orders of a federal judge in the process.

 

[Alan]

You don't think democracy and fighting for your country politically within the boundaries of the law and your cherished constitution is a more nuanced alternative??

See above. You are asking for people to accept a long time under threat of state-sanctioned kidnapping.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

“Just vote him out” is not really a more nuanced alternative.

Exactly.

It's like telling Russians to simply vote out Putin.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

You don't think democracy and fighting for your country politically within the boundaries of the law and your cherished constitution is a more nuanced alternative??

You're right in principle, of course.

But it's rainbows and unicorns now.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Not sure what you're laughing at PK. Trump is following a very similar path to Putin.

 

[prawnking]

They’ve literally deported people with no criminal records to a Salvadoran mega-prison (whose standard practices would make Abu-Ghraib blush) with absolutely zero due process and violating the orders of a federal judge in the process.

I'm fully aware of that. You don't have to convince me the Trump administration are a bunch of cunts, that's not the discussion.

I'm saying try the political route first, communities, counter-arguments, political leaders, organise an alternative vision for your great nation. There are enough non-MAGA Americans to make it a strong opposition.

What I'm hearing as an alternative, is...what? Non-MAGAs take the government down from the streets...or something??

 

[Sniffer]

When did being a 2nd lady become a thing. Don’t think I’ve ever heard of it until the last couple of days and now she’s smack bang in the middle of a diplomatic episode.

 

[prawnking]

Not sure what you're laughing at PK. Trump is following a very similar path to Putin.

Really, I hadn't noticed. Glad all you tough guy street fighting revolutionaries are here to keep me up to date on world affairs.

He's been in power for 10 weeks FFS.

We all know what his goal is, he'd fucking love to be a dictator, but he's not there yet. Firstly you have to try to stop that politically, don't you??

It astounds me that the three of you have effectively given up on democracy in less than three months.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Really, I hadn't noticed. Glad all you tough guy street fighting revolutionaries are here to keep me up to date on world affairs.

He's been in power for 10 weeks FFS.

We all know what his goal is, he'd fucking love to be a dictator, but he's not there yet. Firstly you have to try to stop that politically, don't you??

It astounds me that the three of you have effectively given up on democracy in less than three months.

I lost faith in democracy when he was elected again. Once was bad enough, but twice!?

Dictators arrest people without due cause, dictators erase History, dictators attempt land grabs, he's done/doing all that within 10 weeks - FFS.

 

[prawnking]

Have you never heard of political protest as part of democratic free speech? There are dozens of examples of mass political protest, people on the streets, enacting change. YOU chose to interpret that as me saying violent overthrow of the regime is the only choice. And you call my arguments shallow, you utter clown.

You weren't talking about political protest as part of democratic free speech (which of course I fully agree with), you bypassed both the law and the official political opposition and leapt straight to people on the street, violent conflict and eventually overcoming and overpowering the democratically elected government

there will be a fightback, probably not through the courts or the Democrats, but from people on the streets saying enough is enough.

How those protests are dealt with by the Administration (which I feel sure will be vicious and violent), will go one of 2 ways. People will be cowed into submission and acceptance, and the Fascists will have won, or people will fight back stronger and in greater numbers. And therein hope lies.

And you guys get all shitty when your political position is ridiculed as that of juvenile fantasists. Jesus Christ. To paraphrase the fella from Succession, you're not serious people.

 

[prawnking]

I lost faith in democracy when he was elected again. Once was bad enough, but twice!?

You can't only have faith in democracy when your side (or an acceptable one) wins

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

You can't only have faith in democracy when your side (or an acceptable one) wins

Why?

I've seen people vote against their own best interests a number of times now.

 

[prawnking]

Why?

I've seen people vote against their own best interests a number of times now.

But it's their fucking vote, your judgement and opinion of 'their best interests' is irrelevant FFS

 

[AndyWolves]

Whilst political donations (bribes) are a thing i don't think our current version of democracy works.

 

[prawnking]

Yes I was! Mass protest was what I was taking about. Where do I reference armed insurrection?

I didn't say you did? I said you're talking about bypassing normal political/legal channels (which includes peaceful protest) and going straight for confrontation on the streets to overthrow a government the people voted in late last year.

Your post was two sentences long and contained the word 'fight' twice and 'violent' once. You're not talking about standing on corners with a few placards.

If we're all horrified that Trump is desperate to undo so much of the US's reputation, alliances and democratic system, and if we would rather a decent version of democracy in the US (and the rest of the world) rather than dictatorship, oligarchy, theocracy or worse, shouldn't the move be to defend and legitimise democracy, voting, political discourse, the power of community action, and show that it has value, rather than give up after 3 months and sink to the level of insurrection?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

But it's their fucking vote, your judgement and opinion of 'their best interests' is irrelevant FFS

Yeah? Didn't say it wasn't?