Wolves 0-3 Man City: Verdict Thread

[Tony Towner]

Coaching

 

[Tony Towner]

It's true though Mark. Realistically there are 2 possibilities or variations of, we have bought a team of expensive duds in the main to line Mendes' pockets or we have a series of professional footballers badly coached offensively and told to be overly cautious. There may well be elements of the first, clearly nobody else was paying the money we did for Guedes for example but it's statistically much more likely to be the second.

I'll give you an example on one of the newer players. I'm not going to claim to have watched much of Sporting but it would be fair to say that probably Nunes' biggest positive trait when signed was the ability to carry the ball, something our other CMs can't/don't/won't do. He comes to Wolves and doesn't really do that, he mainly sits and passes the ball passively sideways, when he did against Southampton he set up the goal. In his first appearance he broke beyond the forward line to have a good headed opportunity, that was when he'd been here about 4 days, now he doesn't, why is that? I think Traore's performance on Saturday was overblown by some, but the reason it was is because his first instinct was to look up and go forwards. If Lage is still here the next time he plays I guarantee you he won't.

I don't disagree with a lot of the individual flaws you've highlighted, it's why they play for a mid Prem rather than CL team, but we have a manager who exaggerates rather than hides them.

 

[Johnny75]

Coaching

It's a very long winded and boring hill to die on but I admire you reading through all that shit from a man who isn't even a Wolves fan.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I'm not going to claim to have watched much of Sporting but it would be fair to say that probably Nunes' biggest positive trait when signed was the ability to carry the ball, something our other CMs can't/don't/won't do. He comes to Wolves and doesn't really do that, he mainly sits and passes the ball passively sideways, when he did against Southampton he set up the goal. In his first appearance he broke beyond the forward line to have a good headed opportunity, that was when he'd been here about 4 days, now he doesn't, why is that?

Along the line somewhere Lage came up with the stupid idea of if we play three in midfield, one of them should play as a sort of false right winger.

He tried it with Dendoncker umpteen times to pretty much zero effect and now he is doing it with our record signing.

Such a shit manager.

 

[WsWolf]

It's not just a question of overall quality is it though? It's far more nuanced that that, a bunch of technically talented players doesn't necessarily mean you've got the potential for great free flowing football, I think the mental aspect is far too often massively overlooked in football.

No-one in the world is going to argue that Dave Edwards can even hold a candle to Joao Moutinho but you'd pack the former to garner more xG across a season 100 times out of a 100 in the same team, even a career DM like Dendoncker must have battered Moutinho in that respect every season they were together. Good players aren't necessarily, or even have the potential to be, attacking players and it's certainly not a given that any level of coaching can force them to be so.

If you were a Premier League player going into a game against Wolves, how many players would you actually be worried about facing up against? You can eliminate anyone who isn't in the front three almost instantly, take your choice between sitting off and removing all threatening passing options or apply the minimum amount of pressure and send them passing backwards every time, easy win. Traore will make you look a dick a few times but he'll probably waste it anyway, keep him wide and minimise it's impact. Neto just make sure you don't overcommit, as long as you stay somewhere near he'll probably turn back to give you another chance to tackle him before long. Hwang you can just stand him up and wait for the naff touch. Jimenez will go wide half the time, have a few niggles at him and he'll spend most of his time wrapped up in that pleading to the ref instead of playing football. Guedes will put you through some running at least but so far it's not looking like he'll make anything of it. Podence too would give you a few concerns whether to follow him or try and pass him on but inevitably he'll give it away more often than he'll hurt you.

What is there to fear?

The only two id even consider doing a job on is to prevent Neves getting on the ball with time and space and as you pointed out Podence.

You could say the same about most teams outside the top 6 though couldn't you. Leeds, Brighton, Southampton are Al examples of teams who don't have anyone you'd outright fear (bar giving JWP a fk) but they manage to create and score.

There's absolutely no nuance in game planning, we play the same way every time regardless of how the opponent set up or what tactics they use. I'd have Nunes coming deeper to receive and then driving with the ball who'd have to be accounted for, this would also free up Neves time when he received it.

If an opponent presses with a high line I'd have Neto and Guedes going in behind every time and be making sure our players know that for the first 10/15 mins I want their defence turned every time they have a high line, not just pumped up long but the ball worked so that as soon as we beat the initial press both are set for the ball to be released into the space behind the fullbacks. The opponent then has to decide to either continue and get caught out in behind or sit off a bit more and that gives you time to build attacks. As it is, if we are pressed we still play one paced short football that doesn't really go anywhere, the same if teams sit off us.

I know you are big on the players making their own decisions, which they should be but at the top level they really should have structured ways of play for the situation they find themselves in, stuff that's worked on in shape sessions so that it's second nature they do A,B or C. To me it seems they either don't have this or are being given too much information.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

It's true though Mark. Realistically there are 2 possibilities or variations of, we have bought a team of expensive duds in the main to line Mendes' pockets or we have a series of professional footballers badly coached offensively and told to be overly cautious. There may well be elements of the first, clearly nobody else was paying the money we did for Guedes for example but it's statistically much more likely to be the second.

I'll give you an example on one of the newer players. I'm not going to claim to have watched much of Sporting but it would be fair to say that probably Nunes' biggest positive trait when signed was the ability to carry the ball, something our other CMs can't/don't/won't do. He comes to Wolves and doesn't really do that, he mainly sits and passes the ball passively sideways, when he did against Southampton he set up the goal. In his first appearance he broke beyond the forward line to have a good headed opportunity, that was when he'd been here about 4 days, now he doesn't, why is that? I think Traore's performance on Saturday was overblown by some, but the reason it was is because his first instinct was to look up and go forwards. If Lage is still here the next time he plays I guarantee you he won't.

I don't disagree with a lot of the individual flaws you've highlighted, it's why they play for a mid Prem rather than CL team, but we have a manager who exaggerates rather than hides them.

There are two extremes of that bit in bold that you have outlined, there are countless shades of grey in between, which is where I sit.

I just see a lot of flaws in these players that existed a long time before Lage was in town, it seems a very easy out ball to just pin everything on him when there are a hell of a lot of things going wrong on the pitch that are literally nothing to do with him. This isn't me defending Lage in any way shape or form, he's not doing anything at the moment as far as I can tell to maximise what these players can achieve or fix any of the more obvious ills but to the same degree, neither are the players themselves, I don't get why they're getting such an easy ride when they're also part of the problem?

I feel like I had the conversation somewhere a few years ago, when everyone was riding the the 'technique' bandwagon and British football was finally moving away from signing the biggest, fastest lads for academies and hoping to turn natural athletes into footballers. To me the missing piece of the puzzle, which still seems massively overlooked in a lot of places, is mentality, barely anyone ever talks about the mental aspect of the game, that still seems to be the exclusive reserve of the coaches and their tactics. I firmly believe the players have to be just as mentally engaged, they need to be able to think for themselves out there at least equally as well as their manager/coach setting out a plan for them, as there's another manager out there trying to counteract that, another team of players throwing obstacles in their way. They aren't a bunch of robots that go out and follow instructions to the letter, they need to be able to think on the fly, problem solve for themselves and adjust to the situation on the pitch as they go, sure they'll need coaching input to overcome all of those problems but they shouldn't need micromanaging as this Wolves team appears to.

Whilst you can mould people to some extent I don't think you can fundamentally change their personality, if someone is pessimistic/negative/cautious then it's going to be very difficult to move away from that, you might get spells where you can push them a different way and whilst things are going well/confidence soaring they'll appear to embrace it but hit a bump in the road and most people will revert to type, they go back to tried and trusted. I don't think Wolves currently have enough players with the right mentality to play front foot, dominant football and I think it's very difficult to alter that mentality without a decent churn of personalities, one or two who don't quite fit can be influenced by the group mentality but too many not on brand will make it nigh on impossible to achieve. This is where it needs to come back to Fosun/Shi again for me, what do they actually want Wolves to be? I don't think there's anyone there who knows. There's a solid squad there who's proved they can achieve good results with a conservative counter attacking approach, I think they could still do that with a coaching team who favours that approach but is that what the club wants the team to be? If not then they need to be more focused in their recruitment to get the players who will move away from that and they probably won't get that level of control whilst they'll heavily reliant on taking the players that it suits Mendes to move in any given window.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I'm not overly arsed about front foot football and nor are the club. They didn't appoint Lage because he's the Portuguese Keegan or anything. They sacked Nuno and were in a holding pattern (for whatever reason) of not spending much in net terms. So they appointed someone cheap, compliant and who has no leverage, thinking that we have enough good players for it all to basically look after itself and we won't get relegated. He's not going to rock the boat because the answer to any of his concerns is "you know where the door is, good luck getting an even vaguely similar sized job elsewhere, let us know if you need an extra sheet of paper putting in the printer before you run off your CV".

As it turns out he isn't even an acceptable stopgap, he is shite. It's like handing a Michelin starred restaurant over to Ainsley Harriott. Although Ainsley probably understands how to make a substitution.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

The only two id even consider doing a job on is to prevent Neves getting on the ball with time and space and as you pointed out Podence.

You could say the same about most teams outside the top 6 though couldn't you. Leeds, Brighton, Southampton are Al examples of teams who don't have anyone you'd outright fear (bar giving JWP a fk) but they manage to create and score.

There's absolutely no nuance in game planning, we play the same way every time regardless of how the opponent set up or what tactics they use. I'd have Nunes coming deeper to receive and then driving with the ball who'd have to be accounted for, this would also free up Neves time when he received it.

If an opponent presses with a high line I'd have Neto and Guedes going in behind every time and be making sure our players know that for the first 10/15 mins I want their defence turned every time they have a high line, not just pumped up long but the ball worked so that as soon as we beat the initial press both are set for the ball to be released into the space behind the fullbacks. The opponent then has to decide to either continue and get caught out in behind or sit off a bit more and that gives you time to build attacks. As it is, if we are pressed we still play one paced short football that doesn't really go anywhere, the same if teams sit off us.

I know you are big on the players making their own decisions, which they should be but at the top level they really should have structured ways of play for the situation they find themselves in, stuff that's worked on in shape sessions so that it's second nature they do A,B or C. To me it seems they either don't have this or are being given too much information.

I don't think you even have to make that much of an effort to shut Neves down to be honest, City didn't really put that much attention on him in the first half Saturday but he doesn't do much to try and evade anyone who follows him sauntering back towards the defence so that takes him out the game, Fulham rendered him null with the might of Andreas Pereira following him around and we've seen plenty of games in the last few years where you can just sit deep to kill his passing options rendering him useless without even doing anything directly against him.

Podence is one where his bark is worse than his bite, first time you played against him you'd probably be a bit nervy deciding whether to follow him into midfield or not but then you'd see that the fullbacks never overlap into the space you'd leave in doing so and he loses the ball more often than not anyway so you can probably just leave him to it anyway.

I think others give you a bit more worry even it's just pure numbers game grinding you down, playing against Leeds for example I don't think you'd be massively worried by any of their players but you know it'll be relentless, you have to track the runs every single time and there's always a chance of a slip or a trip that lets them in or they just run you into the ground eventually. You have a similar thing with isolated players at other teams I think, not so much terrifying individuals but you know they'll keep probing away, applying the pressure, trying to force the mistake, Wolves don't seem that hungry in an attacking sense. Even something as simple as Welbeck running in behind, sure his finishing is patchy, the supply from a team like Brighton won't be perfect but it gives the defenders something to think about, applies a level of pressure and stress to their performance, Wolves don't do much of that from what I can see, it's an easy ride.

I agree that tactically there doesn't seem to be any guidance at Wolves at the moment, and I don't think the players have any real natural inclination to do anything that's bridging that gap at the moment, you watch large parts of the games where most players are literally just standing around doing nothing, they have no idea as a group or individually. There are bits you can see some sort of idea, like the way the back four spread themselves to play out from goalkicks, there's obviously a routine they're following there but the midfield don't seem to have any idea or plan to help them get it out from there, Neves just sort of ambles towards the ball, completely square so he's easy to close down and force backwards again. It was noticeable on Saturday when he dropped into defence and Nunes took up that role in midfield how differently he sets himself, he's coming short for it but he wants to turn on it and go forward if he can, that's what you need if your midfield are having to come back towards their own goal to get involved. I just never see Neves do that though, surely he can see that himself? He's been coached at Porto, Portugal and by two separate coaching units at Wolves but he still doesn't seem to set himself properly to take the ball and turn up field, why isn't that corrected?

I watched the first half from Saturday again the other day and there are loads of little things I noticed just watching the way things played out, actions from individuals that complicated things and some of it so infuriating when you've got these talented players that haven't been at massive clubs just making stupid decisions. Was one early on where Collins got a loose ball and stepped forward between two City players, Moutinho is about 10-15 yards square of him and if he runs forward it's an easy pass into his path that would've put Wolves 4v4 with the whole front line trying to run in behind, instead Moutinho shuffles backwards away from the ball, killing the easiest pass for Collins. Ends up with an awkward underhit pass towards Moutinho who has to cycle it on to Sa under pressure from Haaland, why isn't Moutinho being more positive there? You've just gone a goal own inside the first minute, you're one of the senior players you need to put yourself in the game and try to raise those around you, instead he hid and Wolves predictably played the ball backwards. Was another similar thing barely 30 seconds later, Jonny nicked one off Grealish, Neto laid it back and Moutinho is the easy ball into the middle of the pitch with space ahead of him but he stands completely still and a City player takes about 2 steps to shut it off, he's got about 15 yards to run into the create that pass but he doesn't do it, doesn't even try.

It's things like that which really annoy me, that's not some pre-rehearsed routine to drag players around and create openings, it's just basic football. You nick possession and the opponent is a bit disjointed, you've got to think quicker than them to find the gaps, keep possession then try to move the ball around into areas they don't want it to be, that thought process doesn't appear to exist at Wolves. They nick the ball and then no-one really seems to want it, everything is slow and laboured so the other team is able to get back into position or reapply pressure as they see fit and suddenly Wolves have lost the initiative as soon as they regained it. Weirdly, for what appears to be such a conservative group, the players who seem most comfortable with the ball in risky spots are the keeper and two centre halves, as flawed as the currently gameplan (as minimal as it is) may be they do at least seem to embrace the ethos of having the ball and passing it around without completely shitting themselves.

 

[The Bear]

Didn't Jeff specifically say that Lage was here to bring more attacking football to the club (based on his Benfica team?).

Yes he was available and a Mendes manager but so were a few other managers at the time.

What sort of manager do we need to get this team gelling and creating and scoring more? A better one yes, but what sort of traits? Would a high class manager like Tuchel (I know he isn't coming) be able to turn this group of players into an attacking unit?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Didn't Jeff specifically say that Lage was here to bring more attacking football to the club (based on his Benfica team?).

I don't think so. It's bollocks anyway.

If that genuinely were his remit then we might have thought about sacking him when we scored 2 goals in 8 games last winter. We didn't.

 

[Johnny75]

Didn't Jeff specifically say that Lage was here to bring more attacking football to the club (based on his Benfica team?).

Yes he was available and a Mendes manager but so were a few other managers at the time.

What sort of manager do we need to get this team gelling and creating and scoring more? A better one yes, but what sort of traits? Would a high class manager like Tuchel (I know he isn't coming) be able to turn this group of players into an attacking unit?

Tuchel is very much more attacking. He likes wingbacks to cross and his inside forwards to occupy the half space between CB and FB.

It's the movement off the ball that is key in his system like all Gegenpress systems. Fast press and fast possession, quick to the front men and expansive down the wings.

We have the players to do this.

Lopetegui by contrast is more of the same 'horseshoe of doom' possession.

 

[Jinky]

I'll give you an example on one of the newer players. I'm not going to claim to have watched much of Sporting but it would be fair to say that probably Nunes' biggest positive trait when signed was the ability to carry the ball, something our other CMs can't/don't/won't do. He comes to Wolves and doesn't really do that, he mainly sits and passes the ball passively sideways, when he did against Southampton he set up the goal. In his first appearance he broke beyond the forward line to have a good headed opportunity, that was when he'd been here about 4 days, now he doesn't, why is that? I think Traore's performance on Saturday was overblown by some, but the reason it was is because his first instinct was to look up and go forwards. If Lage is still here the next time he plays I guarantee you he won't.

This is a really interesting/good point that I'd not really given much thought to.

You're absolutely right about B. Traore. Personally I want him in the team instead of Moutinho moving forward for the exact reasons you stated above - he came on, he looked forward and he passed. His first instinct was to get the ball forward (not in the old fashioned sense of lamping it in to a channel either) - which is what we've needed for ages. But as you say, what's the betting he starts v West Ham and all of a sudden he's not doing that, and instead, is playing safe, sideways passes like the others. It simply *has* to be a coaching thing. Great example from you on Nunes. He was breaking in to the box on his debut. I also remember the swivel volley which came close. Hasn't done that for a couple of games, which coincidentally is after a few weeks of training under Lage.

It's like there's a plan from the recruitment team in terms of what players we are bringing in (we know Lage has little to no say), but the manager of the team isn't capable of getting them to perform on the pitch because he's asking them to do something completely different. It makes no sense.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Didn't Jeff specifically say that Lage was here to bring more attacking football to the club (based on his Benfica team?).

Yes he was available and a Mendes manager but so were a few other managers at the time.

What sort of manager do we need to get this team gelling and creating and scoring more? A better one yes, but what sort of traits? Would a high class manager like Tuchel (I know he isn't coming) be able to turn this group of players into an attacking unit?

A counter attacking manager gets the most out of this group.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

This is a really interesting/good point that I'd not really given much thought to.

You're absolutely right about B. Traore. Personally I want him in the team instead of Moutinho moving forward for the exact reasons you stated above - he came on, he looked forward and he passed. His first instinct was to get the ball forward (not in the old fashioned sense of lamping it in to a channel either) - which is what we've needed for ages. But as you say, what's the betting he starts v West Ham and all of a sudden he's not doing that, and instead, is playing safe, sideways passes like the others. It simply *has* to be a coaching thing. Great example from you on Nunes. He was breaking in to the box on his debut. I also remember the swivel volley which came close. Hasn't done that for a couple of games, which coincidentally is after a few weeks of training under Lage.

It's like there's a plan from the recruitment team in terms of what players we are bringing in (we know Lage has little to no say), but the manager of the team isn't capable of getting them to perform on the pitch because he's asking them to do something completely different. It makes no sense.

I don't think traits disappearing has to be down to coaching, surely even the worst of coaches wouldn't ask players to spot doing something useful that comes natural to them?

Acclimatizing to new surroundings could have the same effect indirectly. Players turn up doing things they're used to doing previously, it doesn't always reap rewards so you lose faith in it, start to phase it out because it's not as fruitful as it once was. We saw that with Willian Jose, first few games he was a whore for the early near post run, not once did he get a delivery that suited and he ended up just loafing around doing fuck all instead. Unless that run was coached out of him instead?

 

[Tony Towner]

Have you ever considered a role in the current cabinet Mark?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

 

[t3ch]

It's like handing a Michelin starred restaurant over to Ainsley Harriott.

Why you gotta go there

 

[StuardoWulf]

There's plenty of examples of teams who consist worse players with worse scoring record\s being put into a cohesive unit by a decent manager. Potter did it at Brighton. How many of Brentfords players have a history a scoring at the top level? Rodrigo at Leeds averaged about 4 a year in Spain.

So easy to to just say, the players haven't scored many previously. That was by design with Nuno as we played counter attacking football.

I know what you’re saying and don’t disagree but in my post I said it’s the dna and I believe it, team needs breaking up coach needs fucking off ( sorry coach first then team) Mendes is a real obstacle to this though he helped us no end at beginning but we were warned by others about his money roundabout.

 

[StuardoWulf]

It's a very long winded and boring hill to die on but I admire you reading through all that shit from a man who isn't even a Wolves fan.

I find Marks posts very interesting tbf regardless of his allegiances even though he must be a bit of a Wolves fan by now.

 

[Lupollet]

Lage has no redeeming features at all. Nothing about him even reaches average for the premier league. That is down to Jeff who should go for failing to foresee this relegation.