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The R.I.P. Thread

Sniffer

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What I can’t understand is why we pay so much money to France in the hope that they’ll stop them from leaving. Surely it’s in the long term interest of France that they let them leave.
 

sycophantia

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I'm with Paddy in not understanding why they are prepared to risk so much, I get the language and family stuff but even so, the extreme risk in the journey, not to mention the monetary cost. I guess I just can't put myself in their position and imagine the suffering they've gone through.
 

Johnny75

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I'm with Paddy in not understanding why they are prepared to risk so much, I get the language and family stuff but even so, the extreme risk in the journey, not to mention the monetary cost. I guess I just can't put myself in their position and imagine the suffering they've gone through.
That's where I am too and seems like the elephant in the room when taking about the crossings.
 

Paul

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I suppose it depend on what dream has been sold to you by the people that have organised it
 

The Saturday Boy

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The easiest way to get rid of people traffickers is to attack their business model.

Make it easier to claim asylum in this country by enabling the request to be made in another country and do away with this “claim asylum in the first country they arrive in” nonsense that keeps being spouted. There is no requirement for this other than the Dublin Convention which we are no longer part of.

Properly resource those that make the decisions so that decisions are made quickly - interim decisions particularly for those fleeing countries where there is conflict.

Provide safe onward travel to the UK for those that claim asylum.

Allow asylum seekers to work while their refugee status is confirmed.

Change the government rhetoric from demonisation to empathy.

The deaths of these people, not migrants…people, is the responsibility of governments who have failed to address an issue that is only going to get worse.

Migration is something that the human race has been doing for ever. The reasons might change but the movement of people does not.
 

Dire Wolf

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The easiest way to get rid of people traffickers is to attack their business model.

Make it easier to claim asylum in this country by enabling the request to be made in another country and do away with this “claim asylum in the first country they arrive in” nonsense that keeps being spouted. There is no requirement for this other than the Dublin Convention which we are no longer part of.

Properly resource those that make the decisions so that decisions are made quickly - interim decisions particularly for those fleeing countries where there is conflict.

Provide safe onward travel to the UK for those that claim asylum.

Allow asylum seekers to work while their refugee status is confirmed.

Change the government rhetoric from demonisation to empathy.

The deaths of these people, not migrants…people, is the responsibility of governments who have failed to address an issue that is only going to get worse.

Migration is something that the human race has been doing for ever. The reasons might change but the movement of people does not.
100% this.
 

sycophantia

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Watching News night last night, it was mentioned that part of the driver is the amount of time we take to process asylum claims. Here it can take 8-10 years, in Germany it takes 6 months.
Also in the EU, employment beaurocracy makes it very difficult to find jobs compared to here.
TSB makes some good points but I suppose there has to be some sort of control on numbers longterm. There's no doubt we could take more though.
 

Elephant Pyjamas

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Drowning at sea or falling from the sky after freezing to death desperately clinging onto landing gear - if this were fiction you'd be on their side.

You know those dystopian nightmare sci-fi novels and films where the super-rich live in unobtainable floating cloud cities in the sky? Occupants of the elite ruling class living a life of luxury and excess, with money and medical care, whilst the rest of the world suffers. This isn't a random concept, it's a comment on society. We're the cloud city. We are the elite.

It may not feel like that the week before payday when you're scouring the sofa for coins, but in the grand scheme of things you're practically a millionaire.

Yesterday 27 souls perished. Men, women and children. Mothers, fathers, sons and daughters wanting something better, something more tolerable. A life instead of a miserable existence. Is that too much to ask for?

How desperate must they have been. The equivalent for you or I would be going to an X-Factor audition I suppose. So their situation really is truly inconceivable, regardless of whether you agree with them crossing the Channel or not.

How desperate do you need to be to give your life savings to some cunt with a rubber dinghy, then risk the lives of your children by actually boarding it?

It's not for the mythical luxury hotels, free mansions, iPhones and 'flat screen TV's' they're supposedly handed on arrival like the poison pouring right wing shit rags would have simpletons believe.

It's often to escape from war, poverty, or a brutal regime.

It's interesting just how little we invest emotionally in these human lives, and how their stories rarely attract the column inches.

Take one of the aforementioned Hollywood blockbusters though, with great acting, writing, and a cracking score, and ask one the migrant-hating simpletons to invest just an hour and a half in it.

Before you can say 'Netflix' they'd be rooting for the starving, battle-hardened protagonist as he fights the armies of Zaveron with his merry band of outcasts so they can overthrow the evil regime and feed the people or whatever. They'd fucking lap that shit right up.

Show then real, actual people though, fighting and dying right now, and they couldn't give a flying fuck.

It's crazy isn't it? Art is produced to illicit an emotional response, cause controversy and open up debate.

It's all just a massive waste of time though. You can't be cerebral if you don't have a fucking brain to start with.
 

The Saturday Boy

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Watching News night last night, it was mentioned that part of the driver is the amount of time we take to process asylum claims. Here it can take 8-10 years, in Germany it takes 6 months.
Also in the EU, employment beaurocracy makes it very difficult to find jobs compared to here.
TSB makes some good points but I suppose there has to be some sort of control on numbers longterm. There's no doubt we could take more though.
The only way to control global population numbers is culling the elderly or restricting the number of children. The only way to reduce migration is to reduce inequality globally, end conflict once and for all and solve the climate crisis.

Until we have cracked all the above...we just have to manage it better,
 

sycophantia

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The only way to control global population numbers is culling the elderly or restricting the number of children. The only way to reduce migration is to reduce inequality globally, end conflict once and for all and solve the climate crisis.

Until we have cracked all the above...we just have to manage it better,
Yes we'll definitely have to manage it better cos global inequality is here for as long as humans inhabit the earth.
Along with current problems, climate change is going to lead to more and more mass migration....its all very depressing.
 

Dire Wolf

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Yes we'll definitely have to manage it better cos global inequality is here for as long as humans inhabit the earth.
Along with current problems, climate change is going to lead to more and more mass migration....its all very depressing.
Global inequality is here for as long as we have an economic system that is based on forcibly and deliberately creating inequality. Humans don't have an inbuilt desire to see other people suffer, we are social beings and the vast majority believe that fairness and equality is desirable. Just look how people consistently dig deep to help the disadvantaged.

The problem is that capitalism thrives on inequality and keeping people downtrodden. Just look at how small numbers of the wealthy are increasingly hoarding masses and masses of wealth, all the while people are dying in a desperate bid to try salvage the tiniest grain of hope in their miserable lives. That is not a product of humanity, it is a product of an economic system built on greed and disadvantage.
 

sycophantia

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Global inequality is here for as long as we have an economic system that is based on forcibly and deliberately creating inequality. Humans don't have an inbuilt desire to see other people suffer, we are social beings and the vast majority believe that fairness and equality is desirable. Just look how people consistently dig deep to help the disadvantaged.

The problem is that capitalism thrives on inequality and keeping people downtrodden. Just look at how small numbers of the wealthy are increasingly hoarding masses and masses of wealth, all the while people are dying in a desperate bid to try salvage the tiniest grain of hope in their miserable lives. That is not a product of humanity, it is a product of an economic system built on greed and disadvantage.
You're right humans don't gave an inbuilt desire to see others suffer, but they do have an inbuilt desire to have more of everything, they're avaricious by nature.....maybe I've become too cynical
 

Paul

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The problem is that capitalism thrives on inequality and keeping people downtrodden. Just look at how small numbers of the wealthy are increasingly hoarding masses and masses of wealth, all the while people are dying in a desperate bid to try salvage the tiniest grain of hope in their miserable lives. That is not a product of humanity, it is a product of an economic system built on greed and disadvantage.
Whereas Socialist / Communist / Marxist regimes have an almost laissez faire attitude towards wealth distribution ?
 

Paul

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Whataboutery
It's really not though is it ? If you're attributing immigration / migration to a doctrine and the alternative to that doctrine is the same if not worse, then surely the original argument is flawed is it not ?
 

The Saturday Boy

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It's really not though is it ? If you're attributing immigration / migration to a doctrine and the alternative to that doctrine is the same if not worse, then surely the original argument is flawed is it not ?
You have just agreed with me.
 

Newbridge Wolf

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Global inequality is here for as long as we have an economic system that is based on forcibly and deliberately creating inequality. Humans don't have an inbuilt desire to see other people suffer, we are social beings and the vast majority believe that fairness and equality is desirable. Just look how people consistently dig deep to help the disadvantaged.

The problem is that capitalism thrives on inequality and keeping people downtrodden. Just look at how small numbers of the wealthy are increasingly hoarding masses and masses of wealth, all the while people are dying in a desperate bid to try salvage the tiniest grain of hope in their miserable lives. That is not a product of humanity, it is a product of an economic system built on greed and disadvantage.
We are all equal just some are more equal than others.

Humans have never attained a society or social system based on fairness, or at least one than has lasted for any period of time before it was removed by one that wasn't.

Whilst the rational mind can appreciate the virtues of a society based on fairness and equality, history has shown our nature does not align itself to this view.

The world is vastly over populated, the fixing of nitrogen and mass vaccination programmes of the 20th Century helped swell the world's population massively, we are running out of space and materials, the current system will lead to resource wars and destroy so much of our planet. The problem of recognising that the world is over populated is where do you start?

Perhaps the world really does need to start talking to each other and facing some hard truths, yet we can't even begin to take the baby steps of COP20 so any reality check will more than likely be too late.
 

Johnny75

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You're right humans don't gave an inbuilt desire to see others suffer, but they do have an inbuilt desire to have more of everything, they're avaricious by nature.....maybe I've become too cynical
Most don't but some do and invariably they end up in some sort of power.

It's got bugger all too do with money, it's control, whether that's over people, resource or territory.
 

Papper

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The world is vastly over populated, the fixing of nitrogen and mass vaccination programmes of the 20th Century helped swell the world's population massively, we are running out of space and materials, the current system will lead to resource wars and destroy so much of our planet. The problem of recognising that the world is over populated is where do you start?

Where do you start ?
Where have you been the past couple of years ?
It's called the great re-set. Which strangely enough comes packaged within a virus and climate change. Horrible scenario's are not welcomed by the populace who will need to comply. The age of consumption, freedom through consumption and status/class through consumption will be well and truly over.

Klaus Schwab - " The pandemic represents a rare but narrow window of opportunity to reflect, reimagine, and reset our world "

Now is the time for a 'great reset' of capitalism | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)
 
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