Brentford 1-1 Wolves: Verdict Thread

[Jinky]

I also think fake Traore is going to be a pivotal player for us this season. Was really impressed with his fight and energy on Saturday.

Yeah, not too sure what all the criticism of him was about. I thought it was completely refreshing to have someone in the middle of the park with actual mobility, and that snaps in to tackles. I like him a lot. He was a little careless with the ball at times, but that's to be expected - he's young, in a new country, has taken a bit of a leap in terms of the quality that he's now playing against - but he'll get better. I've said it before, but he's in our best 11, for me.

The problem we have is getting the best out of the central midfield mix that we now have (Nunes needs to play deeper, but none of Neves, Moutinho & Boubacar are attacking midfielders). Then there's the fact we don't look like creating anything with Adama, Podence and the now suspended Costa up top.

We're 12 x games in to the season and don't know our best 11 and we don't have a game-plan to get the best out of our players. Anyone would think recruiting a new manager would help...

 

[Dinowolf]

'We're 12 x games in to the season and don't know our best 11 and we don't have a game-plan to get the best out of our players. Anyone would think recruiting a new manager would help...'

Nail.on.the.head

 

[WsWolf]

Yeah, not too sure what all the criticism of him was about. I thought it was completely refreshing to have someone in the middle of the park with actual mobility, and that snaps in to tackles. I like him a lot. He was a little careless with the ball at times, but that's to be expected - he's young, in a new country, has taken a bit of a leap in terms of the quality that he's now playing against - but he'll get better. I've said it before, but he's in our best 11, for me.

The problem we have is getting the best out of the central midfield mix that we now have (Nunes needs to play deeper, but none of Neves, Moutinho & Boubacar are attacking midfielders). Then there's the fact we don't look like creating anything with Adama, Podence and the now suspended Costa up top.

We're 12 x games in to the season and don't know our best 11 and we don't have a game-plan to get the best out of our players. Anyone would think recruiting a new manager would help...

I actually like B.Traore but I was critical of him last game. He gave the ball away multiple times, often when it was a simple 5 yard pass going wayward but he settled in the second half and was very good.

I think him Neves and Nunes can work as a 3 but it will take time to gel and a manager that doesn't want them playing as #10s. Should be Neves as the single pivot and the other two as box to box midfielders, it's not rocket science so it's amazing we've not worked that out yet.

 

[b3h]

I actually like B.Traore but I was critical of him last game. He gave the ball away multiple times, often when it was a simple 5 yard pass going wayward but he settled in the second half and was very good.

I think him Neves and Nunes can work as a 3 but it will take time to gel and a manager that doesn't want them playing as #10s. Should be Neves as the single pivot and the other two as box to box midfielders, it's not rocket science so it's amazing we've not worked that out yet.

Yeah he deffo did several times in 1st half. 2nd half seemed better - also didn't get a yellow! First bet I've had for a while, had the draw, under 2.5 and.... yep ha.

 

[Law's Bus]

The problem we have is getting the best out of the central midfield mix that we now have (Nunes needs to play deeper, but none of Neves, Moutinho & Boubacar are attacking midfielders). Then there's the fact we don't look like creating anything with Adama, Podence and the now suspended Costa up top.

I'm probably going to get slated for this, but actually the best mix of players (note, not the best in overall ability...) from the midfielders we currently have, assuming we're going to stay 4-3-3 is Neves/Nunes/Ronan.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I'm probably going to get slated for this, but actually the best mix of players (note, not the best in overall ability...) from the midfielders we currently have, assuming we're going to stay 4-3-3 is Neves/Nunes/Ronan.

Wouldn't mind seeing the working out here...

 

[Law's Bus]

Wouldn't mind seeing the working out here...

With those three together, you can actually play all of them in their preferred positions without them getting in each other's way and in theory get the best out of all of them.

Pretty much every other combination of midfielders means that someone ends up playing in a position that doesn't get the best out of them. For example, Neves/Nunes/Moutinho you end up pushing Nunes forward too far, and negating his ability to drive forward. Neves/Moutinho/Traore you end up with three midfielders all wanting to be in the same sort of area, or you again push someone out of their best skillset.

We basically have ended up with some really great midfielders, but similar to the old Gerrard/Lampard/Scholes problem, they don't actually go together well as a set.

I'm not seriously suggesting that we should play Neves/Nunes/Ronan every week by any means, just pointing out how our midfielders have been acquired as talented individuals and not really as a 3 in mind.

 

[Tony Towner]

I don't see us getting the best out of Nunes in any 433 combination whilst also playing Neves which obviously you have to. Needs to be 4231 with the slight problem of not having either a 9 or a 10

 

[MARKakaJIM]

With those three together, you can actually play all of them in their preferred positions without them getting in each other's way and in theory get the best out of all of them.

Pretty much every other combination of midfielders means that someone ends up playing in a position that doesn't get the best out of them. For example, Neves/Nunes/Moutinho you end up pushing Nunes forward too far, and negating his ability to drive forward. Neves/Moutinho/Traore you end up with three midfielders all wanting to be in the same sort of area, or you again push someone out of their best skillset.

We basically have ended up with some really great midfielders, but similar to the old Gerrard/Lampard/Scholes problem, they don't actually go together well as a set.

I'm not seriously suggesting that we should play Neves/Nunes/Ronan every week by any means, just pointing out how our midfielders have been acquired as talented individuals and not really as a 3 in mind.

I asked generally as I think it's a fair conundrum, not necessarily limited to central midfield either.

I'm not sure I can agree with Ronan being the catalyst that prompts a better reaction between any of the others. Personally I don't see that he offers anything particularly different to Moutinho. I struggle to see any combination that really clicks, from what I've seen they pretty much all look suited to a double pivot above all else but then there's no one to play ahead of that which makes the whole team work. And obviously you're then leaving an other one of those players out to play that shape.

 

[Law's Bus]

I asked generally as I think it's a fair conundrum, not necessarily limited to central midfield either.

I'm not sure I can agree with Ronan being the catalyst that prompts a better reaction between any of the others. Personally I don't see that he offers anything particularly different to Moutinho. I struggle to see any combination that really clicks, from what I've seen they pretty much all look suited to a double pivot above all else but then there's no one to play ahead of that which makes the whole team work. And obviously you're then leaving an other one of those players out to play that shape.

Indeed.

The issue for me is the whole buying individuals, not players that fit well together and improve the team as a whole, even if each individual on their own merits might not be "the best".

In central midfield, the issue boils down to "who are generally speaking our best midfielders", and the answer to that is clearly Neves and Nunes.

Then following that up, it's "which of our other midfielders then takes the least away from the play and potential of those two", and the answer is... not really any of them.

The reasoning in mentioning Ronan is that he is really the only one who can play that little bit further forward, in the sort of 8.5 area; and would least get in the way if you like. Clearly our "best three" midfielders as it stands are actually Neves/Nunes/Moutinho, and Ronan should be fifth choice at best behind them and Traore, but we all know that doesn't work in the way we're set up.

But honestly, you could apply the same logic to the rest of the team. We have a billion wingers, but other than Traore's Forrest Gump trick, once we've lost Neto, they're all much of a muchness. We have a load of forwards, none of whom fit well with the rest of our play. All of our centre-halves are about 14, and/or have a season at most of any experience at this sort of level.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Indeed.

The issue for me is the whole buying individuals, not players that fit well together and improve the team as a whole, even if each individual on their own merits might not be "the best".

In central midfield, the issue boils down to "who are generally speaking our best midfielders", and the answer to that is clearly Neves and Nunes.

Then following that up, it's "which of our other midfielders then takes the least away from the play and potential of those two", and the answer is... not really any of them.

The reasoning in mentioning Ronan is that he is really the only one who can play that little bit further forward, in the sort of 8.5 area; and would least get in the way if you like. Clearly our "best three" midfielders as it standards are actually Neves/Nunes/Moutinho, and Ronan should be fifth choice at best behind them and Traore, but we all know that doesn't work in the way we're set up.

I think a lot of that problem is borne out of who writes the shopping list. Seems often it's done by the bloke running the shop rather than the customer.

 

[Dire Wolf]

Indeed.

The issue for me is the whole buying individuals, not players that fit well together and improve the team as a whole, even if each individual on their own merits might not be "the best".

In central midfield, the issue boils down to "who are generally speaking our best midfielders", and the answer to that is clearly Neves and Nunes.

Then following that up, it's "which of our other midfielders then takes the least away from the play and potential of those two", and the answer is... not really any of them.

The reasoning in mentioning Ronan is that he is really the only one who can play that little bit further forward, in the sort of 8.5 area; and would least get in the way if you like. Clearly our "best three" midfielders as it stands are actually Neves/Nunes/Moutinho, and Ronan should be fifth choice at best behind them and Traore, but we all know that doesn't work in the way we're set up.

But honestly, you could apply the same logic to the rest of the team. We have a billion wingers, but other than Traore's Forrest Gump trick, once we've lost Neto, they're all much of a muchness. We have a load of forwards, none of whom fit well with the rest of our play. All of our centre-halves are about 14, and/or have a season at most of any experience at this sort of level.

I think this is spot on, in that there just seems to have been a total lack of direction and cohesion around buying policy, playing style and coaching. I said a few days ago that what is needed is a director of football who dictates the way we need to play, the players we buy and makes sure we have coaching that implements this and gets the best out of the squad. We have severely been lacking in these since even before the departure of Nuno. Hopefully JL will change all of that.

 

[Tony Towner]

I think this is spot on, in that there just seems to have been a total lack of direction and cohesion around buying policy, playing style and coaching. I said a few days ago that what is needed is a director of football who dictates the way we need to play, the players we buy and makes sure we have coaching that implements this and gets the best out of the squad. We have severely been lacking in these since even before the departure of Nuno. Hopefully JL will change all of that.

Hopefully is doing a lot of heavy lifting there...he won't. He'll take us back to where we were with Nuno which was having the right of veto, rather than being a nodding dog. We will still be a badly run club, just one with a competent manager

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Hopefully is doing a lot of heavy lifting there...he won't. He'll take us back to where we were with Nuno which was having the right of veto, rather than being a nodding dog. We will still be a badly run club, just one with a competent manager

Sort of makes sense in hindsight why the turnover of the squad was so slow under Nuno. The only flow of new players is via Mendes and he was able, or at least stubborn enough, to pinch the end of the hose at times.