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Israel-Palestine

darlowolf64 said:
Can you point out where absolutely ANYONE has conflated Netanyahu, or the IDF with "ordinary Jews"?

It has been you who has immediately jumped to that assumption and taken any criticism as a sweeping accusation against all Jews, many of whom are equally disgusted with the actions of their government and armed forces
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Incidentally, 'accept that people have different views and debate the post, not the poster' didn't last long, did it?
 
prawnking said:
Incidentally, 'accept that people have different views and debate the post, not the poster' didn't last long, did it?
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I have asked you to advise me where someone, ANYONE has made a clear statement or AS post, accusing all Jews of being Nazis. Then the issue can be dealt with
 
So using racist tropes about Jewish leaders is OK?

If I wanted to report anything I would have done so thanks, what I wanted to do was highlight and discuss it, as no one ever does apart from Visage on here
 
Genuinely, has there been anti-semetic commentary on here? I haven't seen it, and if I've seen it and ignored it that's on me, but I'd like to better myself if you could highlight some and I can check myself and be more alert to it. I'll openly admit I do need to check myself; I despise the Israeli government and their armed forces, and probably good chunk of the population (those, particularly on social media, that celebrate the war crimes) for their actions over the last 18 months. Maybe that spills over or blurs lines, I don't know, but as I say, it's good to check oneself. Of course there also plenty of non-Jewish people that I also despise for their part in that, as well as the Hamas terrorists that targeted civilians

I don't believe that drawing a comparison between Hamas terrorists, or the IDF, with the Nazi's is racist or antisemetic. It's perhaps hyperbolic given the pace and scale of the war crimes, but not so given the attitudes of both organisations to the civilians the other side of the border. The Nazi's are obviously the most high profile example of the targeting of a minority group in Europe, so it's logical that they're the comparison, even if there may be more similar options in modern history
 
prawnking said:
So can I be racist about Obama or Kanye West because they are powerful, and slavery was a long time ago?

Or (crazy thought here), if I want to criticise them, should I just try and steer clear of anything that could be construed that way, and not just focus on things that might be racially controversial or upsetting?
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Again, you’re basing your argument on an utterly false equivalence. No Black American or group thereof has exercised slavery against other racial cohorts. Your argument falls apart on that basis alone.

If you don’t want to be compared to people who do genocide, don’t do genocide. It’s that simple.

But sure, keep defending genocide. If you can live with that, it’s on you, and I pity you.

You know exactly what you’re doing when you say “you only care because Jews are doing it”. Fuck all the way off with this fucking “oh but I didn’t call you a Nazi”.

Israel could be a fucking Zoroastrian state for all I care. They are trying to wipe a population of people from history and your Zionist apologies for it are shameful.

It’s embarrassing that your position is so weak that you can’t engage with Israel as anything but a Jewish construct.
 
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Del Woppio said:
Genuinely, has there been anti-semetic commentary on here? I haven't seen it, and if I've seen it and ignored it that's on me, but I'd like to better myself if you could highlight some and I can check myself and be more alert to it. I'll openly admit I do need to check myself; I despise the Israeli government and their armed forces, and probably good chunk of the population (those, particularly on social media, that celebrate the war crimes) for their actions over the last 18 months. Maybe that spills over or blurs lines, I don't know, but as I say, it's good to check oneself. Of course there also plenty of non-Jewish people that I also despise for their part in that, as well as the Hamas terrorists that targeted civilians

I don't believe that drawing a comparison between Hamas terrorists, or the IDF, with the Nazi's is racist or antisemetic. It's perhaps hyperbolic given the pace and scale of the war crimes, but not so given the attitudes of both organisations to the civilians the other side of the border. The Nazi's are obviously the most high profile example of the targeting of a minority group in Europe, so it's logical that they're the comparison, even if there may be more similar options in modern history
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One could argue, I think, that after so long with Israel treating Palestinians as cattle, that there is a sentiment that nothing will draw the attention of Netanyahu and his ilk except for that specific comparison, precisely because it is so… abrasive.

Is it ill-advised to do? Probably. But again, the easiest way to avoid comparisons with genocidal actors of the past is to simply not do genocide. Should be a low bar, and yet…
 
prawnking said:
Ok, some common grounds for discussion at least!

What do you feel I trivialised or was dismissive about? Happy to clarify and clear up any misunderstanding.

I intended to just ask the question about why using crude tropes about Muslims (and he was specific about the human rights issues relating to Islamists rather than Muslims as a whole) gets one reaction, whereas using crude tropes about Jews gets pushback from just about everyone on this thread, is dismissed or diminished?
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“His posts were crude but-“

The general whataboutery about the reaction to his post from people.

I just don’t think it’s necessarily consistent and so it can come across quite hypocritical, which I don’t think is doing you anything favours here. I’m sure you think that of other posters in this thread.

like I say I also think the language we use is important, and particularly who it is aimed at. There’s an obvious reason why it would be upsetting to Jewish people to have other Jews compared to the Nazis right. I don’t think there is overt Antisemitism on this forum but I do think there is insensitivity towards that and it doesn’t get us anywhere anyway.

but I’ve also been struck by when we see reports of young children/families lives being destroyed and it seems like excuses are made for those responsible for it.

I find this thread quite hard to read at times so I’m not sure why I do it to myself tbh. I think there are others who have better understanding of the history of the issue so I try not to get overly involved in something I don’t always 100% understand. Plus it just goes round in circles.
 
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YoungWolf said:
Plus it just goes round in circles.
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It does, but I don’t know that any of us actually expect to convince anyone of anything. I think (and I include myself in this) that these arguments which so often veer into ad hominem (again, not innocent myself) are as close as any of us can ever get to exerting control over the situation, or, indeed, to offload the emotional baggage of watching what is happening.

That’s not me encouraging you to spend more time here, to be clear. For myself, I’ve long since passed the point of being able to contain my emotions on the topic, and yet here I am. Bad idea? Almost certainly. Cathartic? Unequivocally.
 
Del Woppio said:
Genuinely, has there been anti-semetic commentary on here? I haven't seen it, and if I've seen it and ignored it that's on me, but I'd like to better myself if you could highlight some and I can check myself and be more alert to it. I'll openly admit I do need to check myself; I despise the Israeli government and their armed forces, and probably good chunk of the population (those, particularly on social media, that celebrate the war crimes) for their actions over the last 18 months. Maybe that spills over or blurs lines, I don't know, but as I say, it's good to check oneself. Of course there also plenty of non-Jewish people that I also despise for their part in that, as well as the Hamas terrorists that targeted civilians

I don't believe that drawing a comparison between Hamas terrorists, or the IDF, with the Nazi's is racist or antisemetic. It's perhaps hyperbolic given the pace and scale of the war crimes, but not so given the attitudes of both organisations to the civilians the other side of the border. The Nazi's are obviously the most high profile example of the targeting of a minority group in Europe, so it's logical that they're the comparison, even if there may be more similar options in modern history
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Thanks for at least entering into a discussion about it and reflecting.

Firstly, no other race has the relationship with historic Nazism that Jews do, so it's never equivalent with comparing Nazi's to anyone else. Choose a better example.

In terms of AS definitions, I mean, it's easy enough to diminish and dismiss any claim of discrimination if it you really want to. You can always say someone is over-reacting, playing the 'race card', etc. I think if you did that on here about most 'isms' you'd get short shrift though?

There isn't one universally accepted list of definitions of everything that might be racist/offensive in terms of Black people, or sexist in terms of women, or discriminatory to Muslims... or Jews.

That doesn't mean that only the most blatant, obvious words or acts count though, or are 'real' discrimination, does it? Most of us on here I'm sure try and be conscious of our words and actions, and consider others, and actually listen to the communities involved, don't we?

But with AS on here, nothing is ever really AS, is it? And it's handily all defined by people who 'despise Israel'. Funny, that.

AS has a pretty long, unique and insidious history, and the progressive side of the political spectrum has had a problem with it for years, predating the current conflict. Some links below, you can take or leave them.

www.workersliberty.org

Left Antisemitism

www.workersliberty.org www.workersliberty.org

www.theguardian.com

The Left’s Jewish Problem: Jeremy Corbyn, Israel and Anti‑Semitism – review

Dave Rich’s new history reveals the origins of Labour’s recent antisemitic scandal in a wider leftwing revival of prejudice
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

holocaustremembrance.com

What is antisemitism?

With the IHRA working definition of antisemitism, the IHRA built international consensus around an answer to the question, what does antisemitism mean?
holocaustremembrance.com holocaustremembrance.com

  1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
  2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
  3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
  4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
  5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
  6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
  7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
  8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
  9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
  10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
  11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

en.wikipedia.org

Comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

I even put a Wiki one in there for Wellen :)

Comparisons of modern Jews to Nazi's is lazy and diminishes quite a singular event in the Holocaust, and it's also something anti-Semites on the far right are pretty keen on too, due to how socially acceptable it is. Especially when you can say Zionist and you don't have to use the 'J' word!

Bottom line is, there are plenty of ways to legitimately criticise Israel and Israeli leadership without every having to go anywhere near AS tropes or words. I find it highly hypocritical but entirely unsurprising that some of the most openly 'progressive' on here are happy to be offensive about this and get very defensive when it's pointed out to them. It's not a bug, it's a feature
 
PK - I dont think anyone of sound and reasonable mind would disagree with those definitions of anti semitism with the exception of no.10 that's always been a contentious one.

It's saying that no matter what Israel does they could never be compared with Nazis.

Thats ridiculous isnt it? A very extreme example admitted, but it is fair - Israel could replace the star of David with a swastika and actively put people in gas chambers, but if anyone suggested that was comparable with what Nazis did that would be anti semetic, the person making that comparison would be breaking the law.

Even you must realise how ridiculous that is?

There is lots of evidence to suggest they are killing vulnerable people who are desperately hungry, thirsty and injured on the search for aid with their high performing and powerful weaponry. These people are unarmed and offer no threat whatsoever.

That actually reminds me of a scene in Schindlers List, where Amon Goth's character is picking off the weak and vulnerable from his balcony, and i make no apologies for drawing that comparison at all.
 
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Highlighting that the behaviour of Israel in their war with Palestine is similar to what Jews experienced during the Holocaust should not be deemed anti-semetic.

They are performing genocide and they are committing war crimes, there is no doubt at all about that.
 
I fear if you don't get it now you never will, but history is littered with war crimes, genocide and despicable acts against our fellow humans, most of them don't get compared to the Nazis, mainly because that regime, and what they planned and did to European Jewry, is pretty unique.

People may be using that comparison innocently (if unimaginatively) on here but a lot of people don't, so why wouldn't you want to distance yourself from them? Is the only thing you can say about about current Israel policy is that 'it's like the Nazi's'? And without that you have no critical ammo? Come on!

People don't say 'Israel are like the Nazis' because it's accurate (it's not), it's used because it has extra edgy power when you use it against a Jew, it diminishes the death of 6 million souls in a concerted and industrial eradication effort and equates it with the death of 60,000 in a completely different fashion and context.

Just call them cunts, like you would any other country doing cuntish things. It's literally on a Jewish list of AS behaviours, why would you die on that hill?
 
AntiWarRallyFeb162003.jpg


Would you consider this image anti-Semitic?
 
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Elephant Pyjamas said:
Israel are committing genocide, the most famous genocide of all time (and in relatively recent history) was committed by the Nazis.

I fear that if you don't get that by now, you never will.
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prawnking said:
People don't say 'Israel are like the Nazis' because it's accurate (it's not), it's used because it has extra edgy power when you use it against a Jew, it diminishes the death of 6 million souls in a concerted and industrial eradication effort and equates it with the death of 60,000 in a completely different fashion and context.
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Do you think both death tolls are comparable in size, method, context and intention?

If not, why do you think it's OK to weaponise the Holocaust against the People who suffered the most from it?
 
prawnking said:
Do you think both death tolls are comparable in size, method, context and intention?

If not, why do you think it's OK to weaponise the Holocaust against the People who suffered the most from it?
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I don't think it matters if methods of killing or actions are similar?

A genocide is a genocide.
 
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