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Keir Starmer at it again..

Well i can, because i knew what Corbyn stood for generally, i don't with Starmer at all.

So long as you're ok with picking and choosing... :D

He was a Brexit loving loon when it comes to the EU, everyone knows that, not very strong if he couldn't have the guts to actually say that. Of course as he loves Brexit I think he's an idiot.
 
So long as you're ok with picking and choosing... :D

He was a Brexit loving loon when it comes to the EU, everyone knows that, not very strong if he couldn't have the guts to actually say that. Of course as he loves Brexit I think he's an idiot.

Like many on the left, he had concerns about the EU. However, when it was reduced to a binary question he thought Remain was the best option.
 
Like many on the left, he had concerns about the EU. However, when it was reduced to a binary question he thought Remain was the best option.

That was my understanding of his position too, after the referendum he wanted to "respect democracy" it was the likes of Starmer that persuaded him to come out with the wishy washy bullshit nothingness that did for him in 2019.
 
I'm sorry but I'm just going to have to stick up for a 'fellow boring person' here :), do you honestly think the country as a whole would embrace 'radical', most people fear change do you not think radical change is just a step too far, I know we've got Brexit which is probably the most radical thing we've done, but I think that came about due to peoples complacency that something so radical could never happen ?

It's a good question! My own gut feeling is that most people are comfortable with "radical" when it's something they agree with. So the difference between a Corbyn Labour government and Brexit is that the latter was at once both vague yet simple to grasp - you could vote against how things currently are, but at the same time the way in which Brexit was sold during the referendum meant that everyone could feel that there was a solid chance of getting the version they wanted at the end of it. Whereas with the former you've almost got the opposite problem, in that there were plenty of specific issues with Corbyn and Labour and the left in general already floating around for people to immediately balance the things that they might agree with against. I think that's why you get that weird thing where polls of what's actually in Labour manifestos show that individual policies are generally very popular, but once you group them together in a pamphlet and stick a red rosette on it people go "ah, well, if it's Labour doing it...". This might be part of why, across many Western democracies since the financial crisis, it's been easier for right-wing parties to move left on economics than left-wing parties to move right on culture.

As an example: Corbyn and his shadow cabinet weren't totally against triangulation, and one area in which they were actually to the right of both Theresa May and Boris Johnson in the 2017 and 2019 elections was police and crime. Labour's manifesto offered much higher police funding, as well as a number of other reforms that were based on the idea that more police = lower crime. But, of course, it never really got much attention in the press because it was unbelievable that a Home Office under Diane Abbott would be more pro-police than even the most liberal Tory administration, and all it did was make the people who did actually notice it - activists who care about police violence, like Corbyn himself was for so many years - angry at the sell-out. If your whole brand is radical authenticity, then there are infinite ways to piss people off by betraying that brand. Meanwhile Michael Gove has publicly admitted to doing cocaine, and his daughter is filming herself smoking weed on Tik-Tok every other day, but his wife can write in the Mail/he can give speeches about how cannabis is dangerous and it's still received as sincere and authentic by many people.

As long as the Tories are implicitly viewed as a pragmatic party which only sensibly alters the status quo in line with "common sense", no matter how radical Brexit is it doesn't feel as radical, especially to a voter base which sees the EU as something which itself was the uncomfortable, radical change (most Leave voters were old enough to remember the UK before entry into the Common Market, after all). And I guess that does count as complacency in a way? But whether it's impossible for people to have been complacent about the ramifications of Brexit and then to remain indifferent (or at least not passionate enough to fight for or against it in some way through participating in civil political organisations) is not something I'm sure is impossible, or even unlikely.
 
"Respect democracy" is the most wishy-washy position of all. It doesn't even mean anything.
 
Yes it does, it means that there was a vote and that we should follow through with the results of that vote.

Yes, let's respect a wafer thin result in a non-binding vote, even though it was founded on demonstrable lies and illegal campaigning methods.

And if the country happens to crash into a wall, well that's that I suppose. It was a ridiculous position to hold. But as I say, he's an idiot.
 
That was my understanding of his position too, after the referendum he wanted to "respect democracy" it was the likes of Starmer that persuaded him to come out with the wishy washy bullshit nothingness that did for him in 2019.

I think Brexit is a bad idea but this is entirely correct. May wanted 2017 to be a Brexit election but it wasn't because Labour accepted the referendum. 2019 was a Brexit election.
 
Yes, let's respect a wafer thin result in a non-binding vote, even though it was founded on demonstrable lies and illegal campaigning methods.

And if the country happens to crash into a wall, well that's that I suppose. It was a ridiculous position to hold. But as I say, he's an idiot.

You know I agree how fucking stupid Brexit is, but i don't agree that you can just write off a national referendum, much as i wish we simply could, it's impossible for any government to do that and look the public right in the eye again.
 
I'm taking from the wording that you, the Corbyn faithful had to deduce that (unless Templeton does has ESP ?) the rest of the populous never knew his stance.

I'm struggling to deduce that to be honest Paul? :)
 
I'm taking from the wording that you, the Corbyn faithful had to deduce that (unless Templeton does has ESP ?) the rest of the populous never knew his stance.

Well the official position was remain but reform which translated for some into raving arch brexiteer.
 
The thing is the Tories don't have this, do they? You don't hear "you're not a pure enough Tory, fuck off, we don't want you" if one of them says they'd quite like to spend a bit more on the NHS. Probably because you hand in all morals and humanity at the door when you support them, but still.

But Labour can't help fighting each other. I personally don't take kindly to the utter fucking shit that Maxine Peake was spewing out last week and then a Shadow Cabinet minister endorses it (she hasn't actually backtracked from that bit either, the frond Man Met prick).
 
The left have always had that problem. Its why Monty Python didnt focus on the Right when they did the Peoples Front of Judea.

For a group that sets so much store in solidarity and call each other fucking Comrade they seem incredibly fucking eager to turn on any that steps out side of narrowly defined orthodoxies.
 
The thing is the Tories don't have this, do they? You don't hear "you're not a pure enough Tory, fuck off, we don't want you" if one of them says they'd quite like to spend a bit more on the NHS. Probably because you hand in all morals and humanity at the door when you support them, but still.

But Labour can't help fighting each other. I personally don't take kindly to the utter fucking shit that Maxine Peake was spewing out last week and then a Shadow Cabinet minister endorses it (she hasn't actually backtracked from that bit either, the frond Man Met prick).

That's cos the Tories are concerned solely with the acquisition of power and will say what's required to get it. They absorbed the NF vote in the early 80s by shifting right and they've absorbed the UKIP vote now. Any Tories who aren't comfortable are simply jettisoned.

Labour is where everyone who dislikes the Tories but wants a shot at winning elections has to go. So they're accommodating a wider spectrum of views. They're also about implementing a vision rather than just gaining power so they'll be things they're not prepared to compromise on.
 
Do you believe what Maxine Peake said was helpful? And that RLB should have called her an "absolute diamond" while directly quoting it?

Because I don't like people like that, but I would quite like to vote Labour again one day.
 
Do you believe what Maxine Peake said was helpful? And that RLB should have called her an "absolute diamond" while directly quoting it?

Because I don't like people like that, but I would quite like to vote Labour again one day.

No. I wouldn't vote Labour unconditionally which is what she seems to be suggesting. I voted LD in 5 and 10 so I'm in no position to judge.

Equally though, Starmer has to manage all the factions in the party. Sacking RLB and keeping Reeves isn't a smart move.
 
I'm not interested in whataboutery.

Specifically RLB was an idiot for retweeting that without reading it properly, then she was a moron for not deleting it and apologising, and Peake is a wanker and I want nothing to do with people who hold those kind of views.
 
If Starmer wants to get elected the best thing he could do is actually expel Momentum.
 
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