REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Kenny]

Yeah, I am extra ANGRY on a Friday PM.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Hang on a fucking minute.

All the way through the referendum campaign when it was put to you that immigrants contribute you called bollocks and now if it is Brits in Spain, they do contribute but not vice versa. That is just completely shite. You know it, I know it, Uncle Tom Cobley fucking knows it.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Hang on a $#@!ing minute.

All the way through the referendum campaign when it was put to you that immigrants contribute you called bollocks and now if it is Brits in Spain, they do contribute but not vice versa. That is just completely $#@!e. You know it, I know it, Uncle Tom Cobley $#@!ing knows it.

I never said immigrants didn't contribute. What I have said, on numerous occasions, is the UK does not have the infrastructure in place to accept mass immigration. We don't have enough hospitals, Doctors, school places ect. So therefore the living standards of the people living here drops, like the NHS in crisis. I am not blaming immigrants for that, but politicians.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Im sorry but that doesn't correlate with your previous post. Where you say Brits in Spain are all pensioners "and contribute lots to the Spanish economy" and then contrast with young spanish over here. Why the contrast if you weren't trying to imply they don't contribute?

 

[thehistorymakers]

Im sorry but that doesn't correlate with your previous post. Where you say Brits in Spain are all pensioners "and contribute lots to the Spanish economy" and then contrast with young spanish over here. Why the contrast if you weren't trying to imply they don't contribute?

You are trying to get me to argue on a Friday aren't you? Haha

 

[Penk Wolf]

Can't say I've read all his post, but whenever I've brought it up he's always mentioned the infrastructure rather than their contributions.

 

[Penk Wolf]

For example:

Excellent, so you've stopped blaming immigration?

Never have. I have always said if you have the infrastrucure in place that there is no problem with immigration, although if you don't have it in place, then the people living in that country will see a drop in their living standards.
The problem is the politicians have let us down.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

What I have said, on numerous occasions, is the UK does not have the infrastructure in place to accept mass immigration.

Except immigrants don't drain our services as much as the media will have you believe. People living longer puts more pressure on our services than immigration. Maybe we should have a vote to get rid of all the oldies?

 

[thehistorymakers]

Except immigrants don't drain our services as much as the media will have you believe. People living longer puts more pressure on our services than immigration. Maybe we should have a vote to get rid of all the oldies?

It is the oldies, that put in to the system all of their lives. They have worked hard and paid their taxes in to the system, so they wouldn't have to worry about money, housing and health when they retired.
Maybe they see that the promises have been broken and the money they had paid in to the system is being shared with many people more people than their were.
Again, governments have failed the average, poor and I'll people of this country, by not spending sufficient money on infrastructure and not having it in place in time for the increase in population that we have had.

 

[So Long Architect]

It is the oldies, that put in to the system all of their lives. They have worked hard and paid their taxes in to the system, so they wouldn't have to worry about money, housing and health when they retired.
Maybe they see that the promises have been broken and the money they had paid in to the system is being shared with many people more people than their were.
Again, governments have failed the average, poor and I'll people of this country, by not spending sufficient money on infrastructure and not having it in place in time for the increase in population that we have had.

I'd say most people on here would agree with all of that. It's that you then draw the conclusion that the way to resolve this is to leave the EU is what has people scratching their heads.

 

[visage]

It is the oldies, that put in to the system all of their lives. They have worked hard and paid their taxes in to the system, so they wouldn't have to worry about money, housing and health when they retired.
Maybe they see that the promises have been broken and the money they had paid in to the system is being shared with many people more people than their were.
Again, governments have failed the average, poor and I'll people of this country, by not spending sufficient money on infrastructure and not having it in place in time for the increase in population that we have had.

Except that the contributions they made have all gone. There isnt a box somewhere with 'Ethel's money' written on a post-it note attached to it. Taxes they paid in the 1980's were spent in the 1980's, and so on.

Pensions that are paid *now* are paid for by taxes and NI contributions made *now* - by current taxpayers. And what we know for a fact is that immigrants - being generally young and healthy - tend to pay a lot more in taxes and NI than they take out in healthcare and benefits.

So *if* you drmatically reduced immigration you'd see a worsening of the UK's finances - meaning less money to pay for pensions.

So if you are as concerned as you seem to be for the reliability of pension payments then you should actiually be demanding more immigration, as it reduces the likelihood of those pensions being curtailed.

 

[thehistorymakers]

I don't agree with that. To increase immigration, you have to have more infrastructure in place, hospitals, schools, Doctors, roads, houses ect, if you don't you are asking the man in the street to see his living standards drop even more, longer waiting times, less hospital beds available ect. That costs money and of course it has to come from somewhere. The oldies ( not just you Paddy) have already paid in to the system and they are not getting the services paid for. The pot has to be shared about amongst more people. So therefore there isn't enough to go round. I think you are trying to say, keep bringing more people, to pay more taxes, but as you know, more people need more houses, more Doctors, more roads ect ect. It is a consumers dream, a capitalist, globalisationist (invented word I think) utopia. Meantime the multinationals get richer, the governments keep taking from the money already paid in, by oldies too. In a way they the oldies, the weak, the I'll and now 4 million workers, who are now in poverty, are now being made to suffer for the globalisation dream.
I don't honestly think we disagree with how we would like to see the country run, Vis, we just disagree on how to get there. The system of never ending needing more people, to pay for the people who have already paid in to the system and continuously are getting robbed, would never have stopped, with no control on the EU borders. That doesn't mean I don't like immigrants, or want to ask the people who live and work here, from the EU to leave, It would be an endless game of having to bring more and more people, to pay for the people, who have already paid in to the system. Great for the house builders, landlords, supermarkets, multinationals, but an endless spiral of poverty, hospital shortages, school places, Doctors, and traffic jams.
I don't hate the EU and can understand why you voted to stay in. I have no problem with that or anyone who was worried about their future, have got a mortgage to pay and thought they'd be better to stay in, completely understandable, however I tried to look at the bigger picture, not my personal circumstances, but the long term future of the UK.

 

[Bit on the shaggies]

I don't agree with that. To increase immigration, you have to have more infrastructure in place, hospitals, schools, Doctors, roads, houses ect, if you don't you are asking the man in the street to see his living standards drop even more, longer waiting times, less hospital beds available ect. That costs money and of course it has to come from somewhere. The oldies ( not just you Paddy) have already paid in to the system and they are not getting the services paid for. The pot has to be shared about amongst more people. So therefore there isn't enough to go round. I think you are trying to say, keep bringing more people, to pay more taxes, but as you know, more people need more houses, more Doctors, more roads ect ect. It is a consumers dream, a capitalist, globalisationist (invented word I think) utopia. Meantime the multinationals get richer, the governments keep taking from the money already paid in, by oldies too. In a way they the oldies, the weak, the I'll and now 4 million workers, who are now in poverty, are now being made to suffer for the globalisation dream.
I don't honestly think we disagree with how we would like to see the country run, Vis, we just disagree on how to get there. The system of never ending needing more people, to pay for the people who have already paid in to the system and continuously are getting robbed, would never have stopped, with no control on the EU borders. That doesn't mean I don't like immigrants, or want to ask the people who live and work here, from the EU to leave, It would be an endless game of having to bring more and more people, to pay for the people, who have already paid in to the system. Great for the house builders, landlords, supermarkets, multinationals, but an endless spiral of poverty, hospital shortages, school places, Doctors, and traffic jams.
I don't hate the EU and can understand why you voted to stay in. I have no problem with that or anyone who was worried about their future, have got a mortgage to pay and thought they'd be better to stay in, completely understandable, however I tried to look at the bigger picture, not my personal circumstances, but the long term future of the UK.

This isn't going to stop anyway because the current government, and all the ones before it going back 40 years now, have done nothing to stimulate industry in Britain and instead have tried to build an economy on financial and services sectors whilst 'selling off the silverware' to cover for the fall in revenue in order to keep whatever infrastructure was left up and running (and to line certain pockets as well if we're honest).

Before long they'll sell off the NHS for a pittance (after denigrating it for lack of profitability and it being in need of modernisation of course) and then that will be it, no more silverware. Britons will soon have to pay, through the nose, for pretty much everything that my parent's generation once took for granted.

I cannot see how leaving the EU has done anything to change this. The government refuses to increase funding in the NHS, has made no move to reinforce workers rights and isn't talking about protectionism. The long term future of the UK, from a worker's point of view at least, looks pretty bleak to me.

 

[EdgeOfTheAlps]

Happy that she may no longer be a drain on the system THM? How messed up is this nonsense, I really fear this is getting plain stupid now and I can only hope that the remaining EU countries don't reciprocate the UK's arseholedness.:steam:


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...k-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

 

[Aikiwolf]

Happy that she may no longer be a drain on the system THM? How messed up is this nonsense, I really fear this is getting plain stupid now and I can only hope that the remaining EU countries don't reciprocate the UK's arseholedness.:steam:


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...k-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

Forriners leaching of the state though. I mean forget the evidence that immigration contributes more to the economy than it takes out just remember we have soverenty (which we had anyway but again fuck facts). Just remember under investment in infrastructure by UK governments is the EU's fault...

And @Bit on the Shaggies; the future is bleak for us workers, guess it's up to us to try and make sure it's not totally desolate for the next generation.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Happy that she may no longer be a drain on the system THM? How messed up is this nonsense, I really fear this is getting plain stupid now and I can only hope that the remaining EU countries don't reciprocate the UK's arseholedness.:steam:


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...k-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

At the end of the article from the link you posted, you get the home offices statement. Basically, as long as the EU agree to protect the rights of British nationals living in the EU, to be able to continue living in a country in the EU, we will do the same for EU nationals living in the UK.


A Home Office spokesperson said: “This government has been clear, that we want to protect the status of EU nationals already living here and the only circumstances in which that wouldn’t be possible is if British citizens’ rights in European member states were not protected in return.
“The rights of EU nationals living in the UK remains unchanged while we are a member of the European Union. EU nationals do not require any additional documents to prove their status.”

 

[leedswolf]

As long as they have health insurance?

 

[leedswolf]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...k-is-prepared-to-accept-hard-brexit?CMP=fb_gu

 

[thehistorymakers]

As long as they have health insurance?

I have always made clear on this forum my opinion on that. If someone is able to lively in the UK, they should be treated exactly the same as any other citizen, including health, wages ect.

 

[leedswolf]

I have always made clear on this forum my opinion on that. If someone is able to lively in the UK, they should be treated exactly the same as any other citizen, including health, wages ect.

I was highlighting the difference between HO rhetoric and the individual in the article.