Spurs 1-0 Wolves: Verdict Thread

[Del Woppio]

I would ask what he’s done to earn that time?

He finished tenth last year without a signing, so that was very much mission accomplished, regardless of the fact that we were good, great and then terrible in equal thirds of the season. We still played everybody twice, and finished tenth. That season is now history.

This season he looking at revolution in playing style and squad make up, bringing in players he wants, to play in a formation that he wants. It's weird to expect all of those changes to not need time to stick. We've played three games. Three games in which shit like Dendonker, Hwang, Podence were starting games because we couldn't get the recruitment done before the season started. In the next week or two he'll actually be able to play footballers he likes, in a formation he likes, in a style he likes. Judgment starts then.

 

[Bertiewolf]

I haven’t read the whole thread - apologies! Before he signed Nunes a man targeted by many many clubs (apparently) spoke with Moutinho Neves and other international colleagues. As far as I can judge none of these players said “oh yeah Lage is shit but come and join us cos he might be gone in ten games!” Did I miss something or do the players have a better insight into the Manager than us?

 

[Alan]

He finished tenth last year without a signing, so that was very much mission accomplished, regardless of the fact that we were good, great and then terrible in equal thirds of the season. We still played everybody twice, and finished tenth. That season is now history.

This season he looking at revolution in playing style and squad make up, bringing in players he wants, to play in a formation that he wants. It's weird to expect all of those changes to not need time to stick. We've played three games. Three games in which shit like Dendonker, Hwang, Podence were starting games because we couldn't get the recruitment done before the season started. In the next week or two he'll actually be able to play footballers he likes, in a formation he likes, in a style he likes. Judgment starts then.

Mission accomplished in the George Bush sense, perhaps.

I don't think it's right to hand-wave how utterly terrible we were going forward last season.

 

[WsWolf]

I haven’t read the whole thread - apologies! Before he signed Nunes a man targeted by many many clubs (apparently) spoke with Moutinho Neves and other international colleagues. As far as I can judge none of these players said “oh yeah Lage is shit but come and join us cos he might be gone in ten games!” Did I miss something or do the players have a better insight into the Manager than us?

They probably know more than us but I doubt Jeff Shi is giving the players a weekly update on if they think Lage is shit or not so how would they know if he's gonna be gone in 1 or 10 games?

 

[AndyWolves]

I'm pretty sure the narrative at the end of last season was that people would take a lower league position if the team and way we were playing was showing green shoots of recovery.

We're playing 4 at the back (without being ridiculously open), dealing with being pressed, pressing ourselves and at times playing some really nice football.

There is clearly work to do in the final third, but for me those green shoots are there.

 

[Johnny75]

I'm pretty sure the narrative at the end of last season was that people would take a lower league position if the team and way we were playing was showing green shoots of recovery.

We're playing 4 at the back (without being ridiculously open), dealing with being pressed, pressing ourselves and at times playing some really nice football.

There is clearly work to do in the final third, but for me those green shoots are there.

You didn't answer my question Andy, how many games have you seen this season?

 

[The Bear]

If we'd sacked Lage at the end of last season, and we'd still had the same formation and results so far this season, everybody would be saying the new manager needs time because he's changed the formation and got to bed new players into the team.

Lage isn't a new manager but with so many changes to the players, formation and style, I've mentally reset for this season, so the first paragraph is exactly where I am.

Ultimately its not up to me to decide when the manager should go or stay. Only Jeff knows what the expectations or time frame Lage has this season.

 

[Del Woppio]

Mission accomplished in the George Bush sense, perhaps.

I don't think it's right to hand-wave how utterly terrible we were going forward last season.

But it's equally not right to pin that all on the manager. Raul was shit/is finished, Neto had a mini preseason at the end, he was wedded to five at the back because of how we'd built our squad. You can't make a silk purse out of a cow's ear.

Now we can play 4 at the back, have a mobile carrier in midfield, Guedes and hopefully a striker to come, then we can actually see what Bruno is about as a coach and a tactician.

It may be shit, he may be shit. But until he's got the tools we can't critique what he's built

 

[AndyWolves]

I've seen about 2/3s of all our games.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the points I made though

 

[Johnny75]

I've seen about 2/3s of all our games.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the points I made though

You don't?

 

[Alan]

But it's equally not right to pin that all on the manager. Raul was shit/is finished, Neto had a mini preseason at the end, he was wedded to five at the back because of how we'd built our squad. You can't make a silk purse out of a cow's ear.

Now we can play 4 at the back, have a mobile carrier in midfield, Guedes and hopefully a striker to come, then we can actually see what Bruno is about as a coach and a tactician.

It may be shit, he may be shit. But until he's got the tools we can't critique what he's built

This is an endless loop, though. At some point you have to succeed with the tools you have.

I don't think we have much in the way of top-end talent, but 35 goals scored points to more endemic problems. I really struggle to accept that Yoane Wissa outscored all of our players. He's not better than what we have, IMO.

 

[AndyWolves]

You don't?

I'm allowed to have an opinion on what I've seen

 

[Johnny75]

This is an endless loop, though. At some point you have to succeed with the tools you have.

I don't think we have much in the way of top-end talent, but 35 goals scored points to more endemic problems. I really struggle to accept that Yoane Wissa outscored all of our players. He's not better than what we have, IMO.

You do realise we've changed formation and style? A simple look at the stats tells you that.

 

[jd1981]

You do realise we've changed formation and style? A simple look at the stats tells you that.

Yep 2 most important stats haven’t changed at all in we’re not winning games and not scoring goals.
Stats are a pointless load of rubbish if you keep losing.

 

[Lupo]

We can reset after last season and treat this as a clean slate but the fact is that the problems of last season being lack of chances, lack of goals, no recovery from a goal down, subs making us worse, etc remain an issue. Watching the likes of Leeds and Newcastle today is really pissing me off that we have one goal to show from 3 games (including a blank against newly promoted Fulham). We played some lovely football first half yesterday and still had nothing to show for it.

I don't think Lage is in immediate danger after Fosun have brought in the players he requires but this will become untenable very quickly if things don't pick up. Its worrying that these opening games are ones where we expect to have more than a solitary point before we hit that really hard run of fixtures. If we don't pick up points from the next 3 we could face being firmly in the bottom 3 going into the Autumn.

Regarding goalscoring and lack of chances though, yesterday was only Guedes first start and Nunes first game, like the look of both of them and if, as expected, we bring in a striker this week then hopefully more chances and more goals will come.

 

[Tony Towner]

If we'd sacked Lage at the end of last season, and we'd still had the same formation and results so far this season, everybody would be saying the new manager needs time because he's changed the formation and got to bed new players into the team.

Lage isn't a new manager but with so many changes to the players, formation and style, I've mentally reset for this season, so the first paragraph is exactly where I am.

Ultimately its not up to me to decide when the manager should go or stay. Only Jeff knows what the expectations or time frame Lage has this season.

You've been consistent on this so fair play, however I don't see how anyone can ignore the last 1/3 of last season where a manager granted with personnel challenges, failed week in week out to read what was happening in the game and make the necessary changes. Who saw us getting overrun in midfield by Newcastle and did nothing, who after losing a player against Leeds left 2 wide forwards on the pitch and nobody down the middle and watched his team implode, whose side completely folded on him against Palace and Brighton, many of whom are still here.

Yes, it's a new formation, yes he's got some new players, but unlike your new manager analogy above we've seen what his limitations are. It would be foolish to not see if he can overcome these, equally you can't not be aware of them and therefore doesn't deserve the time a new manager would.

 

[Alan]

We've changed formation, of course (although I'd argue we didn't really yesterday, as I said in the matchday thread), but the plan going forward looks identical to me as it did last season and it's exactly what Tredders said earlier. We seem to think goals can only be scored through individual brilliance or an opposition mistake; we rarely, if ever, look to link up in ways that effectively drag defenders out of position or work us into open space.

 

[Del Woppio]

This is an endless loop, though. At some point you have to succeed with the tools you have.

I don't think we have much in the way of top-end talent, but 35 goals scored points to more endemic problems. I really struggle to accept that Yoane Wissa outscored all of our players. He's not better than what we have, IMO.

It's not an endless loop, I've literally said that once we get a striker then the judgement starts and he has no excuses

 

[jd1981]

You've been consistent on this so fair play, however I don't see how anyone can ignore the last 1/3 of last season where a manager granted with personnel challenges, failed week in week out to read what was happening in the game and make the necessary changes. Who saw us getting overrun in midfield by Newcastle and did nothing, who after losing a player against Leeds left 2 wide forwards on the pitch and nobody down the middleband wached his team implode, whose side completely folded on him against Palace and Brighton, many of whom are still here.

Yes, it's a new formation, yes he's got some new players, but unlike your new manager analogy above we've seen what his limitations are. It would be foolish to not see if he can overcome these, equally you can't not be aware of them and therefore doesn't deserve the time a new manager would.

I agree and the fact people are giving him a free pass last season is bonkers.
Some basic factors were clearly evident at the end of last season, firstly a complete lack of ability to have an affect on the game once we go behind.
Complete disorganisation in certain games ie Leeds, BHA, Palace and Man City.
Constant rotation of the forward line and not getting a tune out of them all season.

 

[Johnny75]

We've changed formation, of course (although I'd argue we didn't really yesterday, as I said in the matchday thread), but the plan going forward looks identical to me as it did last season and it's exactly what Tredders said earlier. We seem to think goals can only be scored through individual brilliance or an opposition mistake; we rarely, if ever, look to link up in ways that effectively drag defenders out of position or work us into open space.

Honestly, you don't think we've changed formation?

I don't think you or Tredman are right on this

It's collective movement we are missing. Nunes broke the line twice (almost scored too) and RAN once and that was it. That's really poor and IS down too the tactics and manager but certainly not the same as last season. That was turgid rubbish without shape or idea.