The Advice Thread

[EpsomWolf]

Smart heating systems?

Something that’s suddenly sprung out of nowhere so any input would be appreciated.

So, having new windows fitted in just a couple of weeks. This involves moving one bedroom radiator to a new position and replacing it with a larger, modern more energy efficient version at the same time. That means new valves are required for that one anyway, and the conversation moves to smart systems, new thermostat, the question of smart valves throughout, do all rads have to have replacement smart valves fitted and so on?

Initially thought just a smart thermostat with the ability to turn the heating on remotely would suffice, but the option of controlling each room independently would be pretty handy too and I’m leaning that way.

I can nip into Curry’s/PC world and have a shufti but wondered if any of you guys are running smart systems and how you find them, what brand/models etc and if you think a simple thermostat is the was to go or to just get right into going the whole hog?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

We are getting a boiler and have been offered a smart system.

Our existing thermostat works fine but I can never remember how to set it. I have a photograph on my phone of the instructions because the writing is so small I have to zoom in to read it.

We are getting a smart system.

 

[EpsomWolf]

Ours is a Worcester Bosch boiler that is 4 years old with a Drayton thermostat which is absolutely dreadful to set and use. I stayed at an Airbnb recently which had a simple digital thermostat and couldn’t believe the simplicity. I should’ve paid attention to whether it had smart valves etc, but regardless, it was up in the north of Scotland and the weather was bloody cold, but the apartment lovely and toasty.

Chalk and cheese to the current set up where I’m always fiddling about opening and closing old fashioned valves trying to (unsuccessfully) keep the individual rooms at appropriate temperatures when you’re not even sure you’ve got the thermostat set properly in the first place.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Are the smart valves not just digital TRVs?

 

[Tredman]

Yep

 

[EpsomWolf]

Are the smart valves not just digital TRVs?

Ok so daft question time - is the digital TRV/smart valve simply a valve displaying the temperature in that room, meaning you have to still manually adjust it like any other valve, and so your still fannying around trying to get things right but you’ve just got a visual aid to help you on your way?

The apps seem to suggest an effortless system whereby you can set and adjust all rooms remotely via the app, but presumably that would require the smart valve to be motorised with a power supply etc?

Sorry if that’s a stupid question, but knowing that is a key factor in deciding how far to go with this.

 

[visage]

Smart heating systems?

Something that’s suddenly sprung out of nowhere so any input would be appreciated.

So, having new windows fitted in just a couple of weeks. This involves moving one bedroom radiator to a new position and replacing it with a larger, modern more energy efficient version at the same time. That means new valves are required for that one anyway, and the conversation moves to smart systems, new thermostat, the question of smart valves throughout, do all rads have to have replacement smart valves fitted and so on?

Initially thought just a smart thermostat with the ability to turn the heating on remotely would suffice, but the option of controlling each room independently would be pretty handy too and I’m leaning that way.

I can nip into Curry’s/PC world and have a shufti but wondered if any of you guys are running smart systems and how you find them, what brand/models etc and if you think a simple thermostat is the was to go or to just get right into going the whole hog?

We have a tado system and it works pretty good - but that was just adding the thermostat to an existing boiler - was a DIY job that took less than half an hour.

At the time we looked at the thermostatic vavlves and it was a toss up as to whether the savings would outweigh the investment so we didnt bother.

 

[visage]

Ok so daft question time - is the digital TRV/smart valve simply a valve displaying the temperature in that room, meaning you have to still manually adjust it like any other valve, and so your still fannying around trying to get things right but you’ve just got a visual aid to help you on your way?

The apps seem to suggest an effortless system whereby you can set and adjust all rooms remotely via the app, but presumably that would require the smart valve to be motorised with a power supply etc?

Sorry if that’s a stupid question, but knowing that is a key factor in deciding how far to go with this.

tado valves work as you describe - in the app you can adjust individual valves. It can do clever things like optimise when to turn the valves on and off based on things like outside weather and historic patterns - so if you're heating a room it knows that it can shut off, say, a degree early and the residual heat will let the room reach its target temperature without overshooting.

As I said in my previous answer though, its probabbly a toss up as to whether the savings merit the cost.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Ok so daft question time - is the digital TRV/smart valve simply a valve displaying the temperature in that room, meaning you have to still manually adjust it like any other valve, and so your still fannying around trying to get things right but you’ve just got a visual aid to help you on your way?

The apps seem to suggest an effortless system whereby you can set and adjust all rooms remotely via the app, but presumably that would require the smart valve to be motorised with a power supply etc?

Sorry if that’s a stupid question, but knowing that is a key factor in deciding how far to go with this.

I don’t know. When I moved in to my current house they had Netatmo thermostat which is just a normal thermostat but you can move it around, and also control the heating from your phone. They do these digital TRVs so I had a look but they are £80 each. That’s a lot of gas to save to even make your money back!

I’ve got UFH downstairs now and that’s all zoned now with individual thermostats so an irrelevance now. Still rads upstairs but will just leave the spare room on low and the rest on 3 which should be adequate but can always turn it up or down a notch if needed. But a room shutting off slightly earlier than a manual TRV would seems like negligible savings to me.

 

[EpsomWolf]

Thanks for the input on this guys, very helpful and starting to get my head around this now. Looks like a full smart system with individually powered smart/digital TRV’s opening and closing themselves is going be the only solution unfortunately.

Reading up on this it’s not surprising the current setup has no chance. There’s very different energy efficiency/heat retention in different rooms as there’s a mix of chilly old house (hence the new windows) and a modern well insulated bit. The thermostat sits in the middle so I’m constantly fiddling about with the manual TRV’s and the boiler doesn’t know whether it’s coming or going. The wife decides to put the log burner on and next thing you sit watching tv sweating like a foundry worker and go to bed with a hot water bottle. Nightmare. I’m actually starting to feel sorry for the boiler.

Luckily all rads have manual TRV’s already, so the smart motorised (battery powered) ones just screw on so at least there’s no additional plumbers cost, and the thermostat installation and overall setup appears relatively straightforward too. Looking at the numbers I agree it’s unlikely smart TRV’s would recover their cost in a reasonably efficient setup, but I’m all over the place currently so getting the whole system working together instead of pushing and pulling in different directions will fingers crossed make a big difference.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Surely your smart TRVs are still going to be overridden by the thermostat? You just need to have a thermostat in your coldest room, which is why traditionally they were in the hallway. Then your boiler will still be going even if the other rooms are up to temp but your TRVs will have shut those rads off so it doesn’t get too hot but the boiler still going to get the colder rooms hotter.

 

[visage]

The boiler fires if at least one room needs heat.

So if two rooms need heat then the boiler is on but the rooms that are already at the right temperature will have their rads turned off.

 

[PuntsWolf]

The boiler fires if at least one room needs heat.

So if two rooms need heat then the boiler is on but the rooms that are already at the right temperature will have their rads turned off.

So you no longer have a thermostat and each radiator is it’s own thermostat?

The one that was with mine was in addition to a thermostat but having a thermostat in each room would make more sense.

 

[EpsomWolf]

Surely your smart TRVs are still going to be overridden by the thermostat? You just need to have a thermostat in your coldest room, which is why traditionally they were in the hallway. Then your boiler will still be going even if the other rooms are up to temp but your TRVs will have shut those rads off so it doesn’t get too hot but the boiler still going to get the colder rooms hotter.

That seems so obvious it’s a bit embarrassing I missed it!

The thermostat is currently in the hall, but that is an old bit which once was a kitchen, but is adjacent to the new bit so getting some heat from there. The coldest room is a downstairs bedroom but it instinctively feels weird to even contemplate putting a thermostat in a bedroom, but I guess with a mishmash normal rules don’t necessarily apply. But yeah, with the thermostat there and smart TRV’s doing their thing that should have the system operating at peak efficiency. It may be with new windows the coldest room changes but I’m going for a battery powered thermostat so I guess that can easily be moved to whichever spot is coldest and the theory holds up. Blimey, complicated but feels like it’s coming together.

Thanks for that info, very much appreciated.

 

[Tredman]

Central heating is a loop, if only one radiator is on then by the time is gets back to the boiler the water is warmer than if multiple were on so needs less heat energy added to go back out again. Etc.