Keir Starmer at it again..

[Elephant Pyjamas]

It's context based obviously. I've spelled it out perfectly clearly in my previous posts very reasonably, and I'm not spending all afternoon repeating myself when neither you or TP discuss politics in good faith on here

It's astonishing when you type "ACKSHUAL" in a post that you consider me and TP as acting in bad faith.

Ive explained what I would want to happen and see from Labour moving forward, you just say it's too late, I've been saying it for over a decade, it's apathy that has got us where we are now. It's not "lefty" or "lecturing" to be anti racism or want to see MPs actually correct bullshit rather than sit there.

And what solutions do you offer? You keep telling me how wrong I am, how "hard left" I am, or how stupid I am. Whilst you offer nothing at all, you just seem to think every thing is fine when there is violence on the streets every time a "foreign" nutter does something awful and an inherently racist political party gain more and more popularity.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

You don't convince people or win them over by wagging your superior finger at them.

The irony! You've told me numerous times how stupid I am

 

[Templeton Peck]

I don't know. I'd ask you to give me examples but that usually just makes you go quiet

Benefit scrounging
Broken benefits system
Benefits bill out of control
Benefits bill unsustainable
Immigration out of control
Immigration wrecking the NHS/schools/housing

Right wing lecturing all the above.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Not every voter with negative views or general personal/community/national concerns about immigration is a hotel burner or rioter, just like every immigrant isn't a member of an exploitation gang.

And that's exactly what I was saying:

Being concerned about Rochdale is entirely different to burning hotels. Calling the latter idiots or thick is not something I'm going to apologise for.

 

[Templeton Peck]

They should do. But other real life experiences are available too

Just listen to the right wing ones I guess.

 

[prawnking]

Benefit scrounging
Broken benefits system
Benefits bill out of control
Benefits bill unsustainable
Immigration out of control
Immigration wrecking the NHS/schools/housing

Right wing lecturing all the above.

So a benefits system can never be broken, or financially unsustainable, and immigration never needs control measures, and has no effect on community resources, and if you disagree you're right wing?

 

[Templeton Peck]

And that's exactly what I was saying:

Being concerned about Rochdale is entirely different to burning hotels. Calling the latter idiots or thick is not something I'm going to apologise for.

Indeed. Can't tolerate people who don't tolerate.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

So a benefits system can never be broken, or financially unsustainable, and immigration never needs control measures, and has no effect on community resources..

Is this your opinion?

 

[Templeton Peck]

So a benefits system can never be broken, or financially unsustainable, and immigration never needs control measures, and has no effect on community resources, and if you disagree you're right wing?

These are all right wing positions. Just opinions. You seem to think they've been handed down by God.

 

[prawnking]

Is this your opinion?

It was a question, but neither of you like those, unless the question is 'is everyone apart from me right wing and/or racist?' (spoiler: the answer is always yes)

 

[prawnking]

These are all right wing positions. Just opinions. You seem to think they've been handed down by God.

Do you think budgets are right wing?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

It was a question, but neither of you like those, unless the question is 'is everyone apart from me right wing and/or racist?' (spoiler: the answer is always yes)

What do you mean? I have engaged and answered your questions? I am repeatedly responding to you?

I dont think "everyone" is right wing at all, I think you hold some right wing views though, surely the fact you and I argue so much and I am a lefty in your view proves that?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Do you think budgets are right wing?

No.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Do you think budgets are right wing?

The framing is.

Cuts are often presented as the only option whilst tax rises are considered unicorn stuff. But Defence spending is 'necessary' of course. There is also little if any discussion about the alternatives. So yay I abolish benefits overnight, but boo there's now way more pressure on NHS, policing, social services and way less demand in a consumer based economy.

 

[prawnking]

What do you mean? I have engaged and answered your questions? I am repeatedly responding to you?

I dont think "everyone" is right wing at all, I think you hold some right wing views though, surely the fact you and I argue so much and I am a lefty in your view proves that?

You don't win an award for responding to my posts mate, it's an online forum.

You usually misrepresent them or ignore the main thrust of them though, so it's not much of a discussion. Like the fact you still can't see the difference between listening to and lecturing an electorate, and think that the latter is going to do anything but piss people off.

Btw I think of myself as of the left but I think it's perfectly healthy and normal to have some views that others (especially in 2025) would consider centrist or even right wing. Whether that's social, economic, personal, cultural. I have no problem with that, I'm certainly not going to contort my experience of the world to fit someone's Ten Commandments

 

[prawnking]

The framing is.

Cuts are often presented as the only option whilst tax rises are considered unicorn stuff. But Defence spending is 'necessary' of course. There is also little if any discussion about the alternatives. So yay I abolish benefits overnight, but boo there's now way more pressure on NHS, policing, social services and way less demand in a consumer based economy.

Of course Defence spending is necessary. Keeping the country safe is one of the first priorities for a government, surely??

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

You don't win an award for responding to my posts mate, it's an online forum.

You usually misrepresent them or ignore the main thrust of them though, so it's not much of a discussion. Like the fact you still can't see the difference between listening to and lecturing an electorate, and think that the latter is going to do anything but piss people off.

Btw I think of myself as of the left but I think it's perfectly healthy and normal to have some views that others (especially in 2025) would consider centrist or even right wing. Whether that's social, economic, personal, cultural. I have no problem with that, I'm certainly not going to contort my experience of the world to fit someone's Ten Commandments

Oh, so I do answer questions then, you just dont like/agree with my answers?

I'm not abusive to you, I dont patronise you, or tell you you're stupid like you do me, so if we are really talking about how "it's not much of a discussion" perhaps look at how you post, because you do that. Regularly.

And I can see the difference, as I am now saying for the 3rd time, someone who is concerned about Rochdale is far different to someone who is burning down hotels, the former you can engage with, the latter you can't.

And stating the pros of immigration, isn't lecturing, it's an important aspect of the immigration discussion that has not been talked about enough by people in power on the centre/left over this whole century and as had a huge impact on where we are today.

So, what here do you disagree with, what am I misrepresenting?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

If a sizeable chunk of the population is suspicious or negative about immigration (and the associated elements), how are patronising semantics and 'we know best' lectures going to engage anyone??

Rightly or wrongly, immigration is a massive issue and area of concern for many working class voters in areas Labour will be fighting Reform

Going back to this post, I think the reason immigration is a massive issue is because the likes of Farage, Robinson etc haven't had their narratives argued against strongly enough.

To have done that wouldn't have been lecturing, it's just against a point that is really divisive and dangerous.

"Ignore them, they'll go away" hasn't worked has it, and continuing with that philosophy isn’t going to improve it either, it needs addressing.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

My hope, and it is a hope rather than an expectation is that immigration halving might dampen the anger and rhetoric.

But that'll only happen if Labour push that fact strongly and firmly, they're not.

900,000 people coming here last year is too many when the standard of living is falling. But if it's 400k and standards are improving, they should be explaining that a lot of that improvement is because of immigrants boosting the economy, they won't do that though. The whole narrative needs flipping.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Of course Defence spending is necessary. Keeping the country safe is one of the first priorities for a government, surely??

More important than feeding them?