Keir Starmer at it again..

[Del Woppio]

If you’re going to go that road you might as well just end Labour forever and get on with means testing NHS care and state education as well.

To be clear, I'd have the threshold pretty high. Not enourmous, maybe in line with high rate tax on private pensions or similar.

My old man's going to be mortgage free and and with a c£40k private pension next year, he doesn't need a state pension, and given we're constantly told how much money we need to shave off the welfare bill, people like him are where cuts should be targeted.

 

[lemonjelly]

Well off pensioners will have long since made sound financial planning which will have factored the state pension into their revenue streams, and one considered a return on an entire working’s lifetime of NI contributions etc.

If you want people to take care of their own financial future and not rely on the state then by all means offer some alternative incentives, but letting people contribute for a lifetime and then suddenly introduce an arbitrary line based on asset wealth, home ownership or whatever criteria meets your political leanings is, whilst understandably very appealing to some, frankly ridiculous and political suicide.

I don't think we can defer making a decision for 30-40 years though mate. We need to implement some of these changes now.

 

[Sniffer]

Well off pensioners will have long since made sound financial planning which will have factored the state pension into their revenue streams, and one considered a return on an entire working’s lifetime of NI contributions etc.

If you want people to take care of their own financial future and not rely on the state then by all means offer some alternative incentives, but letting people contribute for a lifetime and then suddenly introduce an arbitrary line based on asset wealth, home ownership or whatever criteria meets your political leanings is, whilst understandably very appealing to some, frankly ridiculous and political suicide.

I’m talking of those at the 45% tax bracket as a starting point and an increase to 50% would take £250k of additional income per annum to reclaim the full state pension.
I know that I’m left leaning but handing £12k to someone earning £350k per year whilst those working and earning a 10th of that amount are contributing to that £12k doesn’t seem fair.
As for NI paying for a pension it’s the UKs legal Ponzi scheme and shouldn’t be framed that way. A simplification of tax by combining income tax and NI should be the way forward.
My own view was that workplace pension schemes should have been made compulsory far sooner and in future years the minimum state pension could be kept lower and less of a burden on the state.

 

[EpsomWolf]

I’m talking of those at the 45% tax bracket as a starting point and an increase to 50% would take £250k of additional income per annum to reclaim the full state pension.
I know that I’m left leaning but handing £12k to someone earning £350k per year whilst those working and earning a 10th of that amount are contributing to that £12k doesn’t seem fair.
As for NI paying for a pension it’s the UKs legal Ponzi scheme and shouldn’t be framed that way. A simplification of tax by combining income tax and NI should be the way forward.
My own view was that workplace pension schemes should have been made compulsory far sooner and in future years the minimum state pension could be kept lower and less of a burden on the state.

You’ll look at that as paying someone else’s pension and they’ll look at it as claiming something they’ve already paid for. One is more factually correct but the other no less valid imv.

Either way doesn’t resolve the ongoing problem but if you want to encourage people to not be a state burden you have to incentivise savings and facilitate a bit of wealth and that sits very uncomfortably with some. Unfortunately that’s at odds with Labour who are saddled with the reputation of hating wealth and being punitive at every opportunity, so irrespective of rights, wrongs or moralities this is very dangerous territory for them.

 

[Tredman]

Well off pensioners will have long since made sound financial planning which will have factored the state pension into their revenue streams, and one considered a return on an entire working’s lifetime of NI contributions etc.

If you want people to take care of their own financial future and not rely on the state then by all means offer some alternative incentives, but letting people contribute for a lifetime and then suddenly introduce an arbitrary line based on asset wealth, home ownership or whatever criteria meets your political leanings is, whilst understandably very appealing to some, frankly ridiculous and political suicide.

Is 'sound financial planning' code for bought council houses for peanuts?

 

[Del Woppio]

Aye, i's not so easy to soundly financially plan when 60% of your income goes on rent

 

[lemonjelly]

You’ll look at that as paying someone else’s pension and they’ll look at it as claiming something they’ve already paid for. One is more factually correct but the other no less valid imv.

Either way doesn’t resolve the ongoing problem but if you want to encourage people to not be a state burden you have to incentivise savings and facilitate a bit of wealth and that sits very uncomfortably with some. Unfortunately that’s at odds with Labour who are saddled with the reputation of hating wealth and being punitive at every opportunity, so irrespective of rights, wrongs or moralities this is very dangerous territory for them.

Yes, because those in receipt of pensions haven't accessed subsidised higher education, free dental care, health services, transport infrastructure & so much more throughout their lives.
This notion that people's taxes only fund their future pension needs addressing. Urgently.
The notion "My tax expenditure should only be spent on me" has grown to an unreasonable volume.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Say you abolished the state pension - which is the logical final destination of all this 'unsustainable' talk - then what happens?

What do pensioners do without any income?

Do you force them to work?

How do you replace that lost demand in a consumer driven capitalist economy?

Would you invest in care homes to manage all the homeless pensioners? Hospitals? Social housing? The police? Mental health services?

 

[AndyWolves]

Reduce the annual allowance for pension contributions. That increases tax revenues now, only hurts the well off, and doesn't screw anyone out of a state pension

 

[lemonjelly]

No one is saying abolish the state pension?

I am suggesting that if the intention is to make any meaningful impact on the welfare budget, it makes sense to look at what covers almost 70% of it. Only a third of the welfare budget goes to working age claimants.

The challenge is how politically sensitive that is (winter fuel payments). But further reductions to the unemployed, or in work benefits (benefits for those aged 16-60/65) is harmful and alienates some of the most vulnerable who are already in hardship.

The majority of people above retirement age are not experiencing significant hardship. But they are politically engaged, and therefore influence policy.

 

[Templeton Peck]

No one is saying abolish the state pension?

I am suggesting that if the intention is to make any meaningful impact on the welfare budget, it makes sense to look at what covers almost 70% of it. Only a third of the welfare budget goes to working age claimants.

The challenge is how politically sensitive that is (winter fuel payments). But further reductions to the unemployed, or in work benefits (benefits for those aged 16-60/65) is harmful and alienates some of the most vulnerable who are already in hardship.

The majority of people above retirement age are not experiencing significant hardship. But they are politically engaged, and therefore influence policy.

I said its the logical final destination of this kind of talk.

 

[jlo]

The state pension won't exist in 30-40 years time would be my guess. It's partially why they introduced opt out pension schemes in the workplace 10 years or so ago.

That doesn't help today. There's this great tool on the IFS website if anyone wants to see what they might do now if they were in charge of the countries finances

https://ifs.org.uk/be-chancellor

 

[Sniffer]

The state pension won't exist in 30-40 years time would be my guess. It's partially why they introduced opt out pension schemes in the workplace 10 years or so ago.

That doesn't help today. There's this great tool on the IFS website if anyone wants to see what they might do now if they were in charge of the countries finances

https://ifs.org.uk/be-chancellor

I think it will but at a lower relative figure with more means testing.

 

[Wolftone]

Say you abolished the state pension - which is the logical final destination of all this 'unsustainable' talk - then what happens?

What do pensioners do without any income?

Do you force them to work?

How do you replace that lost demand in a consumer driven capitalist economy?

Would you invest in care homes to manage all the homeless pensioners? Hospitals? Social housing? The police? Mental health services?

Could 'assist them to die' now. Maybe freeze them to death?

 

[prawnking]

Just give everyone 80 lashes when they get to retirement age

 

[Wolftone]

Just give everyone 80 lashes when they get to retirement age

Why wait until retirement age? We are all Communists aren't we?

 

[AndyWolves]

The state pension won't exist in 30-40 years time would be my guess. It's partially why they introduced opt out pension schemes in the workplace 10 years or so ago.

That doesn't help today. There's this great tool on the IFS website if anyone wants to see what they might do now if they were in charge of the countries finances

https://ifs.org.uk/be-chancellor

I don't think pensions will disappear, but they'll get dwarfed to the point of uselessness by inflation. One govt sooner or later will decide not to increase it inline with inflation.

 

[Sniffer]

I don't think pensions will disappear, but they'll get dwarfed to the point of uselessness by inflation. One govt sooner or later will decide not to increase it inline with inflation.

Just by inflation would be a saving going forward.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Could 'assist them to die' now. Maybe freeze them to death?

Finally a sensible suggestion.

 

[ROVERT47]

A lot of ageist bollocks going on, tongue in cheek I would hope.
Anyway, I paid national insurance for over 40 years, I think I’m entitled to a state pension whatever my financial situation.