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Man Utd 1-0 Wolves: Verdict thread

Just bloody so gutted 😐 but this feeling has been far too regular since lockdown...I’m getting tired of all the excuses

It has been a difficult time but two decent/good performances against two top 4 challengers in a row with precious little break in between looks like a potential turning point for me, as daft as that may sound as they only yielded a single point.

Playing fairly convincingly twice with different personnel and formations is a step in the right direction for me
 
Found that performance to be a strange mix of the solid reliability of old and at times incredible frustration.

Was unsure of the choice of formation given the available personnel but shuffling the back three over to avoid having Saiss or Kilman on their weak side proved to be a wise move. Those three along with the two young wingbacks were generally solid, only really that one chance at the back stick which Fernandes poked right at Patricio comes to mind as a clear chance.

First half I thought the midfield had a good balance, Neves and Moutinho did their typical screening job and pulled out when fullbacks advanced against them to prevent overloads. Seemed to me that Vitinha helped in those situations by dropping deeper to plug the gap left by whichever of his peers had pulled wide, that gave Wolves a better chance of collecting the second ball if it was crossed in and he also had the composure to take a touch in those situations and look to retain possession rather than merely clear his lines.

Wasn't a great deal for either Traore or Neto to work with in the first period but both did their bit to keep United's back like honest. Two good openings in quick succession for Neto just before the break and he fluffed both, think a sloppy cutback inside killed both moves. First one just slowed it down too much and have AWB chance to shuffle across to cover Traore's run, then a poor scuffed pass from Neto was cut out without too much effort. Second one he tried a similar move to cut back into his left foot but again it was a bit sloppy and so he got closed down and lost the ball.

Second half started in a similar vein but soon began to unravel with the substitutions. Felt the removal of Vitinha was a bit odd, not from a performance POV as he wasn't outstanding but given the minutes in some of the players legs he seemed an obvious one to leave out for 90mins as long as he wasn't having a shocker. Podence had little impact in his place bar one combination with RAN down the left hand side, which again was squandered like Neto's breaks in the first half as he tried to pull a ball back to someone about 25 yards behind him. Felt he let down the midfielders behind him both with and without the ball, was too advanced too often so wasn't available for an easier pass or to attempt to cover Pogba's increasing advances, nor was he so advanced to push onto Matic and prevent him starting attacks, just sat in no man's land affecting nothing.

Felt like Fabio gave it a go but looked like a boy against men, not quick enough to trouble Bailly down that side nor strong enough to hold off Maguire or Matic when he probed elsewhere. Did at least put the yards in and track people back down his side when required.

Ultimately this is where the frustration is for me, you can see a lot of good things in this side but equally you can see the same failings repeatedly that hold them back from pushing on to being even better. They just don't force the issue and take advantage when they get these half openings. The players have the ability to do what's required but it's almost like there's a bit it a mental block, the mentality isn't quite there to really believe in themselves and properly put teams to the sword when the opportunity arises.

I think a lot of it boils down to risk aversion, too often the safe option is taken unnecessarily and opportunity wasted as a result. In the match thread I flagged a situation where Neto strolled straight back into a net for which Traore had just slipped. He had better choices at the time, he could have laid it back in to Traore's path to run at United centrally or played a first time pass out to Hoever who was ahead of both of them but for whatever reason he took the safe option to play the way he was facing, running back into a crowded area and ultimately playing the ball back to Wolves' defence.

Similar with the two breaks first half and Podence is the second. They're half way to an opening advancing on United's backline but they don't really go all out to commit a defender into a challenge or get beyond them, they cut back to relative safety and look to pass responsibility. Also, in contrast to watching Leeds directly before the game, the lack of commitment from team mates to get up in support in those situations is alarming. Neto only had Traore in support for the first break, no-one for the second, Podence had Traore the complete opposite side of the box and everyone else at least 20 yards behind, Ait-Nouri got in once and only had Silva striving to get in the box as a target.

It's something made all the more difficult by how deep the team generally plays though, coupled with the focus to make almost every turnover of possession instantly into a counter attack. It seems incredibly rare at times to see Wolves be content with winning the ball back and just maintaining possession for a while, passing the ball around and allowing themselves to reset. This is where another big annoyance of mine rears it's head, the lack of composure on the ball in the middle of the park. Players like Neves and Moutinho should be controlling the tempo of games, they should be players that all their team mates look to as an out ball, someone that can bail them out under pressure and hold onto it. Too often they're just hooking things over their shoulders of swinging it down the line when it's laid inside to them, players it their ilk should be doing a lot more than simply clearing the decks more often than not. Perhaps if they were more settled and acted as the calming influence they should be then it would give more opportunity to shift the entire team up the pitch with sustained possession and get more players into threatening positions.

That perhaps seems an overly critical view following a generally valiant effort against one of the league's biggest sides but these short comings don't half annoy me. It's not like this is a squad of cloggers battling away under someone of Allardyce's ilk, they're better than that, they should be thinking and footballing their way to success not just battling and scrapping for it.
 
We just ran out legs in the end the spin from certain people that it was the Alamo and Man Utd were banging on the door are talking rubbish.
Did the schedule have an effect? Yes
I said in the match day thread at halftime I was worried we didn’t make the most of so many promising situations. A focal point and numbers in the box is a big draw back example was first half I think Neves whipped a great ball into the box but no one attacked it. Decision making in the final 3rd had to be far better tho numerous times we’ve found ourselves in a good position and wasted it.
 
Yeah, the Neto/Pod sub looked pre arranged to me - no doubt they’ve done it to avoid Neto picking up an injury by over exerting himself, and Adama ran less in the less 25 minutes and played more of a target man role.

thats what we have to do with 2 games in 48 hours - although I was amazed Neves and Moutinho lasted the full 95 minutes, because they ran a huge amount.

Obviously we don't have the in depth detail of fitness levels etc. that the club does but I would've thought the sensible rotation would've been Silva and Podence to replace Neto and Traore, then Otasowie for either Moutinho or Neves. Wingbacks and Vitinha should've been fresh and the back three don't tend to get through all that much running.
 
They just don't force the issue and take advantage when they get these half openings. The players have the ability to do what's required but it's almost like there's a bit it a mental block, the mentality isn't quite there to really believe in themselves and properly put teams to the sword when the opportunity arises.

I think a lot of it boils down to risk aversion, too often the safe option is taken unnecessarily and opportunity wasted as a result.

Definitely a valid criticism you can aim at us this season, it's a frustrating feature of even our better performances. Spot on.
 
Found that performance to be a strange mix of the solid reliability of old and at times incredible frustration.

Was unsure of the choice of formation given the available personnel but shuffling the back three over to avoid having Saiss or Kilman on their weak side proved to be a wise move. Those three along with the two young wingbacks were generally solid, only really that one chance at the back stick which Fernandes poked right at Patricio comes to mind as a clear chance.

First half I thought the midfield had a good balance, Neves and Moutinho did their typical screening job and pulled out when fullbacks advanced against them to prevent overloads. Seemed to me that Vitinha helped in those situations by dropping deeper to plug the gap left by whichever of his peers had pulled wide, that gave Wolves a better chance of collecting the second ball if it was crossed in and he also had the composure to take a touch in those situations and look to retain possession rather than merely clear his lines.

Wasn't a great deal for either Traore or Neto to work with in the first period but both did their bit to keep United's back like honest. Two good openings in quick succession for Neto just before the break and he fluffed both, think a sloppy cutback inside killed both moves. First one just slowed it down too much and have AWB chance to shuffle across to cover Traore's run, then a poor scuffed pass from Neto was cut out without too much effort. Second one he tried a similar move to cut back into his left foot but again it was a bit sloppy and so he got closed down and lost the ball.

Second half started in a similar vein but soon began to unravel with the substitutions. Felt the removal of Vitinha was a bit odd, not from a performance POV as he wasn't outstanding but given the minutes in some of the players legs he seemed an obvious one to leave out for 90mins as long as he wasn't having a shocker. Podence had little impact in his place bar one combination with RAN down the left hand side, which again was squandered like Neto's breaks in the first half as he tried to pull a ball back to someone about 25 yards behind him. Felt he let down the midfielders behind him both with and without the ball, was too advanced too often so wasn't available for an easier pass or to attempt to cover Pogba's increasing advances, nor was he so advanced to push onto Matic and prevent him starting attacks, just sat in no man's land affecting nothing.

Felt like Fabio gave it a go but looked like a boy against men, not quick enough to trouble Bailly down that side nor strong enough to hold off Maguire or Matic when he probed elsewhere. Did at least put the yards in and track people back down his side when required.

Ultimately this is where the frustration is for me, you can see a lot of good things in this side but equally you can see the same failings repeatedly that hold them back from pushing on to being even better. They just don't force the issue and take advantage when they get these half openings. The players have the ability to do what's required but it's almost like there's a bit it a mental block, the mentality isn't quite there to really believe in themselves and properly put teams to the sword when the opportunity arises.

I think a lot of it boils down to risk aversion, too often the safe option is taken unnecessarily and opportunity wasted as a result. In the match thread I flagged a situation where Neto strolled straight back into a net for which Traore had just slipped. He had better choices at the time, he could have laid it back in to Traore's path to run at United centrally or played a first time pass out to Hoever who was ahead of both of them but for whatever reason he took the safe option to play the way he was facing, running back into a crowded area and ultimately playing the ball back to Wolves' defence.

Similar with the two breaks first half and Podence is the second. They're half way to an opening advancing on United's backline but they don't really go all out to commit a defender into a challenge or get beyond them, they cut back to relative safety and look to pass responsibility. Also, in contrast to watching Leeds directly before the game, the lack of commitment from team mates to get up in support in those situations is alarming. Neto only had Traore in support for the first break, no-one for the second, Podence had Traore the complete opposite side of the box and everyone else at least 20 yards behind, Ait-Nouri got in once and only had Silva striving to get in the box as a target.

It's something made all the more difficult by how deep the team generally plays though, coupled with the focus to make almost every turnover of possession instantly into a counter attack. It seems incredibly rare at times to see Wolves be content with winning the ball back and just maintaining possession for a while, passing the ball around and allowing themselves to reset. This is where another big annoyance of mine rears it's head, the lack of composure on the ball in the middle of the park. Players like Neves and Moutinho should be controlling the tempo of games, they should be players that all their team mates look to as an out ball, someone that can bail them out under pressure and hold onto it. Too often they're just hooking things over their shoulders of swinging it down the line when it's laid inside to them, players it their ilk should be doing a lot more than simply clearing the decks more often than not. Perhaps if they were more settled and acted as the calming influence they should be then it would give more opportunity to shift the entire team up the pitch with sustained possession and get more players into threatening positions.

That perhaps seems an overly critical view following a generally valiant effort against one of the league's biggest sides but these short comings don't half annoy me. It's not like this is a squad of cloggers battling away under someone of Allardyce's ilk, they're better than that, they should be thinking Wi footballing their way to success not just battling and scrapping for it.
think most of this is fair but don't think we're far away. As I said earlier any team missing Raul, Boly, Jonny and Donk would struggle. With the 4-2-3-1 we've used a couple of times, we've looked much more in control and cohesive, so if we can get those big 4 players into that system, I feel we'll get a lot more success
 
Another thing that Mark touched upon above is Adamas reluctance to get into the box, whether that's his injury I don't know, he did it again tonight, if he kept on going either he has a shot, gets blocked or brought down.
 
We just ran out legs in the end the spin from certain people that it was the Alamo and Man Utd were banging on the door are talking rubbish.
Did the schedule have an effect? Yes
I said in the match day thread at halftime I was worried we didn’t make the most of so many promising situations. A focal point and numbers in the box is a big draw back example was first half I think Neves whipped a great ball into the box but no one attacked it. Decision making in the final 3rd had to be far better tho numerous times we’ve found ourselves in a good position and wasted it.
Agree on this. Without that proper striker it's always going to be tough. Neto and Traore are feeder players, as in they feed the striker more often than score themselves. Without one we are rudderless up front, and will struggle to win games, other than from set pieces. Silva isn't one yet, and isn't close really..
 
Found that performance to be a strange mix of the solid reliability of old and at times incredible frustration.

Was unsure of the choice of formation given the available personnel but shuffling the back three over to avoid having Saiss or Kilman on their weak side proved to be a wise move. Those three along with the two young wingbacks were generally solid, only really that one chance at the back stick which Fernandes poked right at Patricio comes to mind as a clear chance.

First half I thought the midfield had a good balance, Neves and Moutinho did their typical screening job and pulled out when fullbacks advanced against them to prevent overloads. Seemed to me that Vitinha helped in those situations by dropping deeper to plug the gap left by whichever of his peers had pulled wide, that gave Wolves a better chance of collecting the second ball if it was crossed in and he also had the composure to take a touch in those situations and look to retain possession rather than merely clear his lines.

Wasn't a great deal for either Traore or Neto to work with in the first period but both did their bit to keep United's back like honest. Two good openings in quick succession for Neto just before the break and he fluffed both, think a sloppy cutback inside killed both moves. First one just slowed it down too much and have AWB chance to shuffle across to cover Traore's run, then a poor scuffed pass from Neto was cut out without too much effort. Second one he tried a similar move to cut back into his left foot but again it was a bit sloppy and so he got closed down and lost the ball.

Second half started in a similar vein but soon began to unravel with the substitutions. Felt the removal of Vitinha was a bit odd, not from a performance POV as he wasn't outstanding but given the minutes in some of the players legs he seemed an obvious one to leave out for 90mins as long as he wasn't having a shocker. Podence had little impact in his place bar one combination with RAN down the left hand side, which again was squandered like Neto's breaks in the first half as he tried to pull a ball back to someone about 25 yards behind him. Felt he let down the midfielders behind him both with and without the ball, was too advanced too often so wasn't available for an easier pass or to attempt to cover Pogba's increasing advances, nor was he so advanced to push onto Matic and prevent him starting attacks, just sat in no man's land affecting nothing.

Felt like Fabio gave it a go but looked like a boy against men, not quick enough to trouble Bailly down that side nor strong enough to hold off Maguire or Matic when he probed elsewhere. Did at least put the yards in and track people back down his side when required.

Ultimately this is where the frustration is for me, you can see a lot of good things in this side but equally you can see the same failings repeatedly that hold them back from pushing on to being even better. They just don't force the issue and take advantage when they get these half openings. The players have the ability to do what's required but it's almost like there's a bit it a mental block, the mentality isn't quite there to really believe in themselves and properly put teams to the sword when the opportunity arises.

I think a lot of it boils down to risk aversion, too often the safe option is taken unnecessarily and opportunity wasted as a result. In the match thread I flagged a situation where Neto strolled straight back into a net for which Traore had just slipped. He had better choices at the time, he could have laid it back in to Traore's path to run at United centrally or played a first time pass out to Hoever who was ahead of both of them but for whatever reason he took the safe option to play the way he was facing, running back into a crowded area and ultimately playing the ball back to Wolves' defence.

Similar with the two breaks first half and Podence is the second. They're half way to an opening advancing on United's backline but they don't really go all out to commit a defender into a challenge or get beyond them, they cut back to relative safety and look to pass responsibility. Also, in contrast to watching Leeds directly before the game, the lack of commitment from team mates to get up in support in those situations is alarming. Neto only had Traore in support for the first break, no-one for the second, Podence had Traore the complete opposite side of the box and everyone else at least 20 yards behind, Ait-Nouri got in once and only had Silva striving to get in the box as a target.

It's something made all the more difficult by how deep the team generally plays though, coupled with the focus to make almost every turnover of possession instantly into a counter attack. It seems incredibly rare at times to see Wolves be content with winning the ball back and just maintaining possession for a while, passing the ball around and allowing themselves to reset. This is where another big annoyance of mine rears it's head, the lack of composure on the ball in the middle of the park. Players like Neves and Moutinho should be controlling the tempo of games, they should be players that all their team mates look to as an out ball, someone that can bail them out under pressure and hold onto it. Too often they're just hooking things over their shoulders of swinging it down the line when it's laid inside to them, players it their ilk should be doing a lot more than simply clearing the decks more often than not. Perhaps if they were more settled and acted as the calming influence they should be then it would give more opportunity to shift the entire team up the pitch with sustained possession and get more players into threatening positions.

That perhaps seems an overly critical view following a generally valiant effort against one of the league's biggest sides but these short comings don't half annoy me. It's not like this is a squad of cloggers battling away under someone of Allardyce's ilk, they're better than that, they should be thinking and footballing their way to success not just battling and scrapping for it.
I agree with much of this - especially the part about Vitinha substitution. Tactically it hurt us.

I think if we had the appropriate (or at least fair) rest time, we play a back four at full strength and play more similar to how we played against Spurs. Different opposition, styles I know, but we showed that we could afford ourselves time on the ball for the first sixty minutes. We just looked noticeably tired. I don't think it was by design or the plan to end up with Neves/Moutinho or the centre backs hooking it into spaces to relieve a bit of pressure, I think we just lack the energy and outlets to stretch the distances between the United lines. They could take more risks and player higher as a result.

I do agree about how deep we hold our line in general. I think you can see us gradually trying to play a little higher though, especially in a back four. I think Nuno sees it, it just isn't going to happen as quickly as maybe people might want or expect. We can go and dominate games not just in terms of possession but territorially. So when we have a situation like today, we have to go back to default a little, especially in a way where we can limit space behind the defence, and conserve energy.
 
I agree with much of this - especially the part about Vitinha substitution. Tactically it hurt us.

I think if we had the appropriate (or at least fair) rest time, we play a back four at full strength and play more similar to how we played against Spurs. Different opposition, styles I know, but we showed that we could afford ourselves time on the ball for the first sixty minutes. We just looked noticeably tired. I don't think it was by design or the plan to end up with Neves/Moutinho or the centre backs hooking it into spaces to relieve a bit of pressure, I think we just lack the energy and outlets to stretch the distances between the United lines. They could take more risks and player higher as a result.

I do agree about how deep we hold our line in general. I think you can see us gradually trying to play a little higher though, especially in a back four. I think Nuno sees it, it just isn't going to happen as quickly as maybe people might want or expect. We can go and dominate games not just in terms of possession but territorially. So when we have a situation like today, we have to go back to default a little, especially in a way where we can limit space behind the defence, and conserve energy.

The Neves and Moutinho thing rattles me pretty much every game to be fair, not just tonight. For such good footballers they seem far too precious about the ways they're comfortable receiving the ball, always seem to want acres of space and too often drop far too deep to get it.

Was so uplifting early in tonight's game to see a cross cleared and drop to Vitinha about 25 yards out. Facing his own goal he took a touch, drop of the shoulder sent the United player one way and he spun the other into space. He then played a pretty naff pass toward Neto that was easily cut out but was so refreshing to see a midfielder in that position take the ball down and look to build something instead of just clearing it and getting back into shape.

Big contrast later in the game when RAN had won it, laid it inside to Moutinho and he just hooked it forward on his weak foot. RAN may as well have done that himself!

It's just annoying that probably the two players who most would single out as being the most useful with the ball are the two who seem most prone to this lack of composure. Not sure whether it's a confidence thing or just the conservatism of Nuno's general approach impacting of the individual mentality of players.
 
Whilst I can clearly see there’s the basis of good side especially in the last 3/4 fixtures the fact remains we’ve lost 4 out the last 6. December was always a gruesome fixture list but form in regards results will have to improve sooner rather than later.
Defeat Saturday would certainly get the panic brigade out in force.
 
Think that anyone reasonable would be willing to give the team the benefit of the doubt at the moment. The sort of luck we’ve had over the past month or so could cripple anyone’s season.
 
Think that anyone reasonable would be willing to give the team the benefit of the doubt at the moment. The sort of luck we’ve had over the past month or so could cripple anyone’s season.
The 4 games we’ve lost this month tonight and the Villa game we’ve had no luck the Burnley and Liverpool matches we can have no moans about the outcome.
 
The 4 games we’ve lost this month tonight and the Villa game we’ve had no luck the Burnley and Liverpool matches we can have no moans about the outcome.
I was thinking starting with the Arsenal match, to be honest. Liverpool would probably have been no different, but the rest of the month looks wildly different with Jimenez fit and playing.
 
I was thinking starting with the Arsenal match, to be honest. Liverpool would probably have been no different, but the rest of the month looks wildly different with Jimenez fit and playing.
We were dead unlucky against Villa and United. I am not panicking but I really hope for some January signings especially a striker. I think that Costa would have been great last night giving Maguire on a yellow card a torrid night. Small margins. If he wants 70 k a week for 18 months that’s 15m and in today’s terms , small potatoes. Fabio would learn loads from him and a recovering Raul in 18 months
 
Big contrast later in the game when RAN had won it, laid it inside to Moutinho and he just hooked it forward on his weak foot. RAN may as well have done that himself!

It's just annoying that probably the two players who most would single out as being the most useful with the ball are the two who seem most prone to this lack of composure. Not sure whether it's a confidence thing or just the conservatism of Nuno's general approach impacting of the individual mentality of players.
That was one incident and in no way typified his game, but yes I think that is there remit unless we're playing catch up
 
Was thinking all night about this game. I think this one hurts more than the 2010 game where Park Ji-Sung scored way into fergie time
 
Do you not think the 'excuse' this time was valid ??

Replying to Charlie Wolf before TT stuck his massive oar in :)
Absolutely, they are more than valid and contributory factors. The frustration is that it’s becoming tedious.
The singular common root cause has been game management
Last nights result had no influence upon the results at Sheffield Utd, Burnley last season and more recently Newcastle, Villa, and possibly others where we have not managed the game out in the last 5 mins
With less than two minutes to go we stopped doing what we had done for over 90 minutes which was defending as a unit and got caught to far up the field chasing the game and a spannered ball over the top was not dealt with.
If tired legs was a factor then surely we should have just had two banks of four behind the ball to close the game out and taken a creditable draw for our efforts. That for me is game management, we snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory again were a great defensive performance where we made Man U look bang average now look like they had hammered us and eventually broke us down, which is far from the truth
 
We weren’t winning at any point, we were undone by tiredness and a long punt forward that our otherwise excellent defenders failed to deal with against one of the best players in the world.

We don’t, and never have, played with 2 banks of four and thankfully Rafa is not our manager to inflict 1980’s tactics on us. This sort of comment is usually accompanied by ‘gerrit forward’ which I thought we’d consigned to the bin for a good year or two now.

I think Nuno dropped a bollock taking Vitinha off, we lost all control once that happened as Pod was dreadful.

It’s not as you say us getting smashed.

Such a shame as we looked totally in control up to that point.
 
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