Keir Starmer at it again..

[Paddingtonwolf]

It’s not strange at all. I think Momentum prefer Boris in power to Starmer which is fucking bizarre.

 

[YoungWolf]

It’s not strange at all. I think Momentum prefer Boris in power to Starmer which is fucking bizarre.

Although I would also find that bizarre, let’s not pretend that the Blairites also didn’t prefer Boris to Corbyn.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I don’t think they did. We were all supposed to get behind Comrade Corbyn when he was the only show in town to take on the Conservatives and he delivered an electoral cuffing. Now there is a new show in town the Corbynites don’t want to return the favour.

 

[Johnny75]

Although I would also find that bizarre, let’s not pretend that the Blairites also didn’t prefer Boris to Corbyn.

I don't think that's true.

They might have preferred May but not Boris. They knew he was pro-Brexit, right wing and a vacuous charlatan.

Part of the problem with the extreme left is their victim complex.

 

[YoungWolf]

We saw how little support Corbyn got from those people against Boris compared to May so I don’t think that’s true at all. A lot of those people were acting in self interest anyway, as people tend to do.

this isn’t me preaching about Corbyn, and it’s a little bit of whataboutery but it is certainly hypocritical to say that about the left when the centrists/blairites/whatever you want to call them were guilty of exactly that. If not probably more strongly because the left are far less likely to vote Tory…

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Anyone who voted for Blair and then subsequently voted for Johnson is a fucking moron.

 

[Tony Towner]

The problem with what I'd call the traditional left is the search for purity. There are people on here who are on the record as saying they would rather be in opposition with a leader who they feel reflects their values than in power with a Blairite style leader.

The problem is I don't think government is achievable with the former in 2021 and the alternative is Conservative, but there is a reluctance to get behind the least worse option

 

[Johnny75]

We saw how little support Corbyn got from those people against Boris compared to May so I don’t think that’s true at all. A lot of those people were acting in self interest anyway, as people tend to do.

this isn’t me preaching about Corbyn, and it’s a little bit of whataboutery but it is certainly hypocritical to say that about the left when the centrists/blairites/whatever you want to call them were guilty of exactly that. If not probably more strongly because the left are far less likely to vote Tory…

I'm not sure I understand your first point. Are you saying Corbyn received less support from the Blairite/ centrist section of the party when Johnson got into power rather than when May was there?

I think maybe that has more to do with people withdrawing their support for Corbyn rather than supporting Boris or May.

If you think centrists are attracted to Johnson or Corbyn you're sadly mistaken. It's not hypocritical not to support somebody you don't think represents your view but I take your point that Blair and Brown did poke the far left to come along with them.

Isn't Labour's biggest failure the loss of Scotland and Wales to nationalist parties?

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

Although I would also find that bizarre, let’s not pretend that the Blairites also didn’t prefer Boris to Corbyn.

I wouldn't agree with that.

I voted for "New Labour" 3 times (I was just too young to vote in 1997 otherwise I'd have voted for Blair then too) but I also voted for Labour in 2019 too even though I knew Corbyn was the wrong man to be leading the Labour party. (I didn't vote Labour in 2015 or 2017).

The Blair years were infinitely better than anything the Conservatives served up before or since. Obviously the war was a big failure of his but we would have been involved in that war whoever was PM at the time. Domestically, the Blair government was very good IMO.

I agree that Starmer has his faults but I believe he is more electable than Corbyn ever was. I just want the current government gone, even if that means having a less than perfect Labour PM.

 

[Tony Towner]

Agree T-Dan. I voted twice for Labour under Corbyn. In a FPTP system my constituency is a 2 horse race and although not a particular fan, he was preferable to the alternative

The only thing I disagree with you about is Iraq. I agree that if the Tories were in power the war would still have happened, I expect better from a Labour PM though. The whole praying with Bush stuff still sickens me. The only time I've not voted Labour in a GE since I first started in 1992 was in 2005

 

[BillyDee]

Anyone who voted for Johnson is a fucking moron.

FIFY

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I'm not sure I understand your first point. Are you saying Corbyn received less support from the Blairite/ centrist section of the party when Johnson got into power rather than when May was there?

I think maybe that has more to do with people withdrawing their support for Corbyn rather than supporting Boris or May.

If you think centrists are attracted to Johnson or Corbyn you're sadly mistaken. It's not hypocritical not to support somebody you don't think represents your view but I take your point that Blair and Brown did poke the far left to come along with them.

Isn't Labour's biggest failure the loss of Scotland and Wales to nationalist parties?

I think Scotland and Wales is an important point, as if Labour hadn't damaged their support there so much in the prior years, they'd have won comfortably in 2017, but even despite that, Labour got a higher vote share in 2017 than they have since 2001.

As for the centrists/right of the party it's on record that those within the party actively worked against Corbyn to sabotage his election campaign in 2017. There is understandably a lot of anger from the left side of the party because of that, there is a lot more to it than people just holding their noses and voting for Starmer in the next election when he is actively purging them.

Also, Kier's 10 pledges that got him elected as Labour leader have been totally forgotten, he hasn't uttered a word about them since.

https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/

I was daft enough to believe him and vote for him.

 

[Tredman]

Although I would also find that bizarre, let’s not pretend that the Blairites also didn’t prefer Boris to Corbyn.

Nonsense. I held my nose and voted for Labour whilst being entirely uncomfortable with their world view and opinions.

 

[YoungWolf]

I'm not sure I understand your first point. Are you saying Corbyn received less support from the Blairite/ centrist section of the party when Johnson got into power rather than when May was there?

I think maybe that has more to do with people withdrawing their support for Corbyn rather than supporting Boris or May.

If you think centrists are attracted to Johnson or Corbyn you're sadly mistaken. It's not hypocritical not to support somebody you don't think represents your view but I take your point that Blair and Brown did poke the far left to come along with them.

Isn't Labour's biggest failure the loss of Scotland and Wales to nationalist parties?

But that is what I think 'momentum' or the left are doing with Starmer, is it not?

I don't see the difference in behaviour. It might just be me. I'm not particularly wedded either way. When it comes to an election I will probably reluctantly vote for Starmer. Not that in the area I currently vote in it would make too much difference anyway as it's Islington!

 

[YoungWolf]

Nonsense. I held my nose and voted for Labour whilst being entirely uncomfortable with their world view and opinions.

I'm talking more specifically about the people within the party, tbh/

 

[Tredman]

I'm talking more specifically about the people within the party, tbh/

Great. I’m a Labour Party member.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

It’s not strange at all. I think Momentum prefer Boris in power to Starmer which is fucking bizarre.

As i said i think i recall you wanting the Tories out, but also being critical of Corbyn? Maybe i'm confusing you with someone else.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I certainly wasn’t a fan but held my nose and voted for him, reconciling myself by the argument I was of course voting for my local MP, a much more centrist politician than Corbyn. Unfortunately his manifesto resembled Foots longest suicide note in political history and my local MP lost her seat to a Conservative.

However, I don’t remember Corbyn being heckled at his own conference by the Blairite faction. Momentum are actively anti Starmer and it’s plain as your nose. Their puritanical zeal for their vision of Labour is all that seems to matter, even though that vision is utterly unelectable.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I certainly wasn’t a fan but held my nose and voted for him, reconciling myself by the argument I was of course voting for my local MP, a much more centrist politician than Corbyn. Unfortunately his manifesto resembled Foots longest suicide note in political history and my local MP lost her seat to a Conservative.

However, I don’t remember Corbyn being heckled at his own conference by the Blairite faction. Momentum are actively anti Starmer and it’s plain as your nose. Their puritanical zeal for their vision of Labour is all that seems to matter, even though that vision is utterly unelectable.

So I do remember correctly then.

I'm sure you remember when 44 labour MPs resigned (including Starmer) in a coup against Corbyn though? No? Despite Corbyn actually polling far better during that period than Starmer has.

Or the fact that those of the right/centre of the party were working to sabotage him during the 2017 election, which is fact.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leak-report-corbyn-election-whatsapp-antisemitism-tories-yougov-poll-a9462456.html

Does that not count? That is a large reason why there is resentment, as well as the fact that Starmer has binned the pledges that he was elected on and seemingly done his best to purge as many of those from the left as he can, Corbyn didn’t do that, perhaps he should have, he’d have probably won in 2017.

It seems to me you are happy to criticise the left of Labour for being full of resentment, but have forgotten the reasons why and how the right/centre behaved during Corbyn's tenure, at least the left have been up front about it, those working under Corbyn were sly and underhand.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Yep. Pretty much all that. The Labour Party is split and broken. Mainly because it was foolish enough to elect Corbyn as leader in the first place. It might well be better for all if the left actually split and formed their own party as I can’t see any chance of a reconciliation.

What I would say is that there are lots of centrist votes out there waiting to be hoovered up as the Conservatives have lurched miles right. I think a Starmer position in the political spectrum is more likely to get them than a Corbyn one.