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The TWF Horse Racing Thread

Dennisons Wrong Foot

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You want to speak out, then fine. Not sure what you're hoping to achieve posting it in a tipster thread on a football forum. I doubt you are going to change many peoples minds in there on the sport, with the witty (and incorrect) anology.

I wouldnt push people to watch horse racing, if people want to know more about it I will talk to them. Just find it humourous that people who dont follow or really understand the sport think their preaching about cruelty will change minds
As previously said, I posted it in the tipster thread because it seemed busier than this thread. Also because it is national week. Changing peoples minds is not usually a "Hallelujah" moment. It is more of a drip drip effect. So me getting on someones nerves probably achieves nothing in the short term, but is worth it if it becomes part of a larger movement (sorry that is so poorly articulated).
Of course I don't follow the sport, but there was a time (40 years ago) when I followed greyhound racing - Monmore Green, Willenhall, Moor Green in Brum (or was it Moor Hall?), Haringey, and others. And I don't see how not being a current afficionado makes a viewpoint any less valid. You call it preaching - I call it speaking out.

You can't just make sweeping comments though that horse racing is cruel without backing that up with reasoning and actual facts. Of course there's cruelty involved but there's cruelty in absolute every walk of life because humans are involved and we're not all as good as we should and we would hope to be. Biggest argument i could make for horse racing to continue that takes the argument away from actual racing is that the thoroughbred is bred to race, you stop racing and you're killing off an entire breed of horse. I know i love horse racing but i don't think i'm comfortable in killing off an entire breed of any animal.
So I think you agree that racing is cruel. Your justification seems to be that horses like to run around and would not exist without racing. There are thousands of wild horses running around in the US.
 

Trips

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Horses would exist, but thoroughbred horses are purely bred for racing. Without racing you wouldn't have them. Wild horses wandering around in America or elsewhere would not be taken to a racecourse
 

Dennisons Wrong Foot

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Racecourses would not exist either.

Humans have created a breed of horse just to race it, and the justification for racing is that the breed would not otherwise exist. That is not a very good justification.
 

Trips

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I'll leave you to it. I'm not going to (or going to attempt to) change your mind, and whatever your argument is won't change mine.

I find the 'racing is cruel, it should be banned' argument tedious. I dont need to justify horse racing, or my enjoyment of it, to anyone. I know for a fact that racehorses have fantastic facilities where they live and train, and are looked after fantastically well and adored by the lads and girls that look after them every day.

Any injury/fatality in racing is dreadul, and believe me the people involved in the sport feel it more than the anti-racing brigade. Courses, trainers and the rule makers constantly make changes to make things safer and better for horse welfare.
 

Doctor Doog

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That's as irrlevant as the footballer anaology. Alcoholism as tragic as it is is ultimately personal choice.
That’s a pretty strong assertion. I just believe concern for humans far outweighs care for animals, and I’d be interested in how someone who makes his living from selling alcohol squares that with his views on animal welfare.
 

Tony Towner

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So you'd like to see alcohol banned then? Or are you suggesting that Dennison should shut down his business as a small percentage of his customers will abuse alcohol because of his views on animal rights? Neither argument holds much water.

Now if he were an animal eater I'd agree there's some hypocrisy there, but I don't know if that is the case or not
 
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slink

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So I think you agree that racing is cruel. Your justification seems to be that horses like to run around and would not exist without racing. There are thousands of wild horses running around in the US.
No you think wrong, i think that there are cruel people in all walks of life so some race horses will be treated abhorrently but i don't think the sport of horse racing is cruel. I understand that horses die for the sport we love, i understand those that don't think it's morally acceptable but i don't think you or anyone else is in a place to preach about how it's cruel and especially again without including facts and reasoning.

Wild horses are not thoroughbred horses. Are you advocating releasing the thousands of thoroughbreds in to the wild? Got to be honest, you don't like horse racing i get it but it feels like you have no idea about the sport and have just taken this view and want to push your agenda on to people. That's me done anyway.
 

Doctor Doog

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No, I’m just interested in his views. My point would be that both should be highly regulated, which they are.
 

Dennisons Wrong Foot

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I'll leave you to it. I'm not going to (or going to attempt to) change your mind, and whatever your argument is won't change mine.

Any injury/fatality in racing is dreadul, and believe me the people involved in the sport feel it more than the anti-racing brigade. Courses, trainers and the rule makers constantly make changes to make things safer and better for horse welfare.
I never expected to change your mind. On the other hand, if inherent cruelty is not a reason to discontinue something, then I don't know what is.
I am sure that some of the stable staff do get genuinely upset at the death of an animal, that does not mean that the 'anti-racing brigade' do not grieve just as much or more. My wife literally bursts into tears (then cannot sleep for a week) every single time she sees a dead animal.
If changes to welfare conditions are constantly being made, that sounds like an admission that mistreatment of horses is a problem you have not solved.

I just believe concern for humans far outweighs care for animals, and I’d be interested in how someone who makes his living from selling alcohol squares that with his views on animal welfare.
First part I totally disagree. Humans are animals, and I find speciesism as abhorrent as racism. If it is wrong to kill a human then it is wrong to kill a cow, or any other creature. But we are digressing from horse racing.
Second part you are not the first person to comment and will probably not be the last. There are several retorts such as humans choose to drink alcohol whereas horses do not have any voice. Or racing (like slavery) is inherently evil whereas studies have shown that moderate consumption of alcohol can be beneficial (or at the very least not be harmful).
i understand those that don't think it's morally acceptable but i don't think you or anyone else is in a place to preach about how it's cruel and especially again without including facts and reasoning.

Wild horses are not thoroughbred horses. Are you advocating releasing the thousands of thoroughbreds in to the wild? Got to be honest, you don't like horse racing i get it but it feels like you have no idea about the sport and have just taken this view and want to push your agenda on to people. That's me done anyway.
Your argument sounds like you are saying it is ok to find racing morally unacceptable, but not to say so.
We all 'have an agenda' in that we have a set of values that we want the world to live by. If you believe that by voicing an opinion on something I find wrong, I am in fact pushing my agenda onto you, then guilty as charged. In the same way as wanting racing to remain legal is forcing your agenda on others.

Seriously (no sarcasm) I actually appreciate some of you voicing your thoughts when we disagree. I am sorry I did not come to this debate armed with pages of facts - it was just a spur of the moment comment this morning.
 

Johnny75

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So you'd like to see alcohol banned then? Or are you suggesting that Dennison should shut down his business as a small percentage of his customers will abuse alcohol because of his views on animal rights? Neither argument holds much water.

Now if he were an animal eater I'd agree there's some hypocrisy there, but I don't know if that is the case or not
Just because you can’t see it doesn’t make it irrelevant. And as somebody who has seen alcoholism up close and personal your ‘personal choice’ comment is as misguided as the assertion that horse racing is cruel.

It is hypocritical to sell something to somebody in the knowledge that they are addicted to something whilst sitting on a moral high ground of animal cruelty.
 

Johnny75

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I never expected to change your mind. On the other hand, if inherent cruelty is not a reason to discontinue something, then I don't know what is.
I am sure that some of the stable staff do get genuinely upset at the death of an animal, that does not mean that the 'anti-racing brigade' do not grieve just as much or more. My wife literally bursts into tears (then cannot sleep for a week) every single time she sees a dead animal.
If changes to welfare conditions are constantly being made, that sounds like an admission that mistreatment of horses is a problem you have not solved.


First part I totally disagree. Humans are animals, and I find speciesism as abhorrent as racism. If it is wrong to kill a human then it is wrong to kill a cow, or any other creature. But we are digressing from horse racing.
Second part you are not the first person to comment and will probably not be the last. There are several retorts such as humans choose to drink alcohol whereas horses do not have any voice. Or racing (like slavery) is inherently evil whereas studies have shown that moderate consumption of alcohol can be beneficial (or at the very least not be harmful).

Your argument sounds like you are saying it is ok to find racing morally unacceptable, but not to say so.
We all 'have an agenda' in that we have a set of values that we want the world to live by. If you believe that by voicing an opinion on something I find wrong, I am in fact pushing my agenda onto you, then guilty as charged. In the same way as wanting racing to remain legal is forcing your agenda on others.

Seriously (no sarcasm) I actually appreciate some of you voicing your thoughts when we disagree. I am sorry I did not come to this debate armed with pages of facts - it was just a spur of the moment comment this morning.
So all horse racing is cruel as is animal husbandry for the breeding of meat?

Reads to me as your wife needs mental health help with grief as death happens to all living things and she’s not dealing with it very well.
 

Tony Towner

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What job is he allowed to have whilst not being accused of being a hypocrite for views on racing? Can he have a hardware store, because people abuse solvents, can he sell cars, because people drive like dicks and kill innocent people?
 

Johnny75

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What job is he allowed to have whilst still being entitled to his views on racing? Can he have a hardware store, because people abuse solvents, can he sell cars, because people drive like dicks and kill innocent people?
You are misunderstanding addiction, hypocrisy freedom of choice and even responsibility of opinion.

Good work.

I’d add to that solvents aren’t made for human consumption and you won’t die of driving cars every day off your life for 5 hours a day. Whereas people selling alcohol know they’re selling a harmful substance to people that if used for an extended period of time and as its primary function would lead to harm.

For someone to hold the views on cruelty to animals DLF does and then selling something that is intentional harmful to animals (which is what he sees humans as) is hypocritical.

I’m amazed you can’t see that.
 
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Del Woppio

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I do get the argument on both sides. It is cruel, on that trainers are making horses do things that they may or may not want to do. When I hear trainers say 'he's a boy that loves his jumping' or such like, I do shake my head at the conflation between 'loving something' and 'he's good at it and does what he's told'. Really, sticking 12 stone on an animals back and making it run as fast as it can...its hard not to call that cruel, in the same way that, whilst of course the methods are different, teaching an elephant to dance is cruel. They say the horse loves it, but you can also guarantee that if it didn't have a man it's back, it wouldn't choose to run for three miles jumping 6 foot fences.

I get it.


I still love it though, probably because I'm just a bit of a shit. In the same way that I've massively cut down on meat consumption, but not completely. Or I sometimes don't rinse my recycling. Or many of the hundred life choices I make every day, that, if I was to sit and think about them in isolation I'd deduce that it's a bad choice to make, but I still make them because I like them or its easier for me.
 

Dennisons Wrong Foot

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So all horse racing is cruel as is animal husbandry for the breeding of meat?

Reads to me as your wife needs mental health help with grief as death happens to all living things and she’s not dealing with it very well.
Not gonna hurl abuse however much I want to.
My wife has got the most beautiful soul of any person I have ever met. I just mentioned it as a reply to the (absurd) suggestion that the anti-racing brigade do not care about the well-being of individual horses. It's the very reason we are against racing ffs.

Whether or not you think I am a hypocrite (I don't), that does not detract from the arguments against horse racing. It is no more acceptable, nor more of a 'sport', just because a person who is against it also happens to sell alcohol. My job is completely irrelevant to the merits of this argument.
 

Trips

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Not gonna hurl abuse however much I want to.
My wife has got the most beautiful soul of any person I have ever met. I just mentioned it as a reply to the (absurd) suggestion that the anti-racing brigade do not care about the well-being of individual horses. It's the very reason we are against racing ffs.

Whether or not you think I am a hypocrite (I don't), that does not detract from the arguments against horse racing. It is no more acceptable, nor more of a 'sport', just because a person who is against it also happens to sell alcohol. My job is completely irrelevant to the merits of this argument.
I said I was done, but please dont misquote me. I said the stable staff and connections feel the loss of their horse more than the anti-racing brigade. I didnt say they don't care about individual horses.

You have your view, and seem intent on pushing it onto others, but dont make stuff up that I haven't said to prove your point
 

Johnny75

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I've yet to see your argument against horse racing, other than 'it's cruel'.
 

Dennisons Wrong Foot

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I said I was done, but please dont misquote me. I said the stable staff and connections feel the loss of their horse more than the anti-racing brigade. I didnt say they don't care about individual horses.

You have your view, and seem intent on pushing it onto others, but dont make stuff up that I haven't said to prove your point
"Any injury/fatality in racing is dreadul, and believe me the people involved in the sport feel it more than the anti-racing brigade." is what you said. Sorry if I interpreted that wrongly, my point is that your assertion is false. It is also not the point - the 'antis' care about every single horse (and greyhound, camel etc.)

Pushing my view on others? I made a comment, and then responded to replies (after stating that I would only comment further if prompted).

I've yet to see your argument against horse racing, other than 'it's cruel'.

Something that other posters have readily agreed with and expanded on. My original post referenced racehorses being put down - definitely relevant during national week.
 
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